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CD/DVD Lasers (split topic)
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)
Posted by: Finster
Admin's Note: Split from this topic
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
Judgement Day:
When you open the drive does the "busy" light on the front panel come on?
Does the drive have two lights visible on the inside of the tray? It may be a slightly older drive that doesn't have the indicators, so if you don't see any lights at all don't panic. If you do see the lights, but one or more of them are not on then the drive is bad. One light should be white and the other should be either blue or red, sorry I can't remember which it is. If the white one is on but the other is off then the drive can read CDs, but the DVD part is broken.
If the white one is off but the other is on then the drive should read DVDs, but won't read CD. If you can't see the lights, or if they are both on then here's what you do.
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This advice is kind of silly. First of all, all sorts of crazy crap can happen with lights. Just because a light doesn't come on, does NOT mean the drive is bad. If I plug the power into my drive, but don;t plug in an IDE cable, i can eject disks, but when I put a disk in, the light doesn't come on at all. Does that mean my drive is bad?
Second of all, I have NEVER EVER EVER seen a DVD drive with two separate lights for CD and DVD reading. If there is one out there, I'll be really fricking surprised. I HAVE seen drives with a light downing I/O activity, and another indicating a disc is inserted. Also, he gave his DVD-ROM make and model, a rudimentary check of google.com would lead you here. There are NOT two lights on this drive, as you can see. Only one. Which is the case with MOST DVD-ROM drives.
Please... PLEASE... PUH-LEASE don't give out silly advice like this unless you know what you're saying. Do the research and gather the information first. THEN post.
Posted by: Bored
Finster:
Quote:
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This advice is kind of silly. First of all, all sorts of crazy crap can happen with lights. Just because a light doesn't come on, does NOT mean the drive is bad. If I plug the power into my drive, but don;t plug in an IDE cable, i can eject disks, but when I put a disk in, the light doesn't come on at all. Does that mean my drive is bad?
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If the drive is being detected then it is obvioiusly connected to the IDE cable, in which case everything I said was correct. If an indicator light is not working the drive is technicly broken, and should be replaced if it is still under warranty EVEN IF IT STILL WORKS.
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Second of all, I have NEVER EVER EVER seen a DVD drive with two separate lights for CD and DVD reading. If there is one out there, I'll be really fricking surprised. I HAVE seen drives with a light downing I/O activity, and another indicating a disc is inserted. Also, he gave his DVD-ROM make and model, a rudimentary check of google.com would lead you here. There are NOT two lights on this drive, as you can see. Only one. Which is the case with MOST DVD-ROM drives.
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You are right, a DVD-ROM drive only has one white laser which reads both CD and DVD. I was thinking of the DVD-RW that burns CDs and has a red laser as well. Sorry, that is my fault.
On the other hand, if the indicator light is not on then either the laser is broke or the light is broke. Either way if the drive is under warranty it should be replaced because it isn't working properly. I know I would replace my drive if an indicator light wasn't working at all.
Judgement Day:
Can the DVD-ROM drive read CDs?
Posted by: Finster
Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
If the drive is being detected then it is obvioiusly connected to the IDE cable, in which case everything I said was correct. If an indicator light is not working the drive is technicly broken, and should be replaced if it is still under warranty EVEN IF IT STILL WORKS.
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Read my post again. I didn't say anything about the drive being detected. The drive is NOT detected, but because the power is on, I can eject and inject discs using the button on the front.
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You are right, a DVD-ROM drive only has one white laser which reads both CD and DVD. I was thinking of the DVD-RW that burns CDs and has a red laser as well. Sorry, that is my fault.
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Um... there is no such thing as a "white" laser. DVD and CD drives both use red lasers. Burning drives use red lasers as well, for read and write. In your profile, you say that physics is one of your interests. This should not be news to you, then.
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On the other hand, if the indicator light is not on then either the laser is broke or the light is broke. Either way if the drive is under warranty it should be replaced because it isn't working properly. I know I would replace my drive if an indicator light wasn't working at all.
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True, if a light is not operating correctly, then yes, you MAY need to replace the drive. But again, read my post. MY drive's indicator does not work when I have the IDE cable unplugged. This is not a hypothetical example. This is how my drive actually behaves. (I know this because I forgot to plug in the IDE cable after my most recent mobo upgrade.) My point is, that unexpected light behavior does not automatically equate with hardware failure. Secondly, some of us have components that are out of warranty, and it's cheaper to continue using a drive with a bad LED, than paying $50... just so I have a drive with a working LED.
Posted by: Bored
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DVD and CD drives both use red lasers. Burning drives use red lasers as well, for read and write.
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White:
Read only. All optical drives have this.
Red:
Burn various types of CDs, found in all CD burners and NOT in CD-ROM drives.
Blue:
Burn DVDs
Posted by: Canis Lupus
http://www.cdpage.com/Compact_Disc_...rym.html#LINK12
Today, lasers abound to suit diverse technologies and applications. Some magazines have reported tests of blue, blue- green, and blue-purple lasers of higher precision, which will make possible higher density optical discs. Ultraviolet lasers produce heat and require cooling--just as do the barely visible violet Krypton gas lasers.
http://www.disctronics.co.uk/techno...cs/cd_intro.htm
CD players use light emitting diode lasers, which are compact and low cost, to read the data contained in pits in the surface of the disc._ CDs require an infra red laser, while the newer DVDs require a red laser for the smaller pit geometry._
http://www.usbyte.com/common/dvd_7.htm
Current DVD drives use red lasers (630 to 650 nm), and the "easiest" way to increase areal density is to switch to shorter-wavelength lasers, i.e. blue or violet lasers with wavelengths as low as 400 nm._ This will make possible about 15 GB of data per layer per side._ To achieve, say, 45 GB of data per side per layer, even shorter, UV range lasers will be needed._ Still, compact, reliable, and inexpensive short-wavelength lasers are hard to make.
http://www.srtl.co.uk/srtl/dvdinfo.html
For the DVD to realise its high recording density, it uses a red laser with a shorter wavelength than that of CD-R. Compared with CD-R and CD-RW, with their wavelength recording of 780nm, the DVDs wavelength is shorter, from 635 to 650nm. When the next generation DVD, with a 15GB capacity or greater is realised in the near future, it will make use of a blue laser with an even shorter wavelength (in the 400nm range).
No mention of a white laser, though ... then again, maybe I'm not searching in the right place? 
Posted by: Finster
Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
White:
Read only. All optical drives have this.
Red:
Burn various types of CDs, found in all CD burners and NOT in CD-ROM drives.
Blue:
Burn DVDs
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OMFG. You have to be kidding me. Who told you this? Where on earth would you learn something so blatantly wrong?
Why on earth would you think there is a white laser? There is no such thing. Also, Blue-laser optical drives are not in production yet. And believe me, there is NO drive on the market that uses your fictional white laser. They operate somewhere around 650-nm. That's RED!
So tell me... what is a frequency of a white laser?
Appended:
okay, Canis Lupis is all over this. And for the love of pete, there is NO white laser.
Posted by: Bored
Right now I am sitting in a room with ~200 technicians, many of which have degrees and as many as ten or more years experience with troubleshooting PCs and they all say I'm right except that the blue laser actually reads DVD because of layering. There's also two more shifts just waiting to agree with me too. Sorry guys.
Posted by: Finster
Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
Right now I am sitting in a room with ~200 technicians, many of which have degrees and as many as ten or more years experience with troubleshooting PCs and they all say I'm right except that the blue laser actually reads DVD because of layering. There's also two more shifts just waiting to agree with me too. Sorry guys.
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Then you are sitting in a room with ~200 of the most MISINFORMED technicians this world has ever seen. Don't tell me you do tech support... What company do you work for? What do you provide support for? Well, nevermind.
So, let's see here... myself, Canis Lupis, and THE REST OF THE INTERNET is wrong when they say that blue lasers are not used in commercial DVD drives. Are you THAT deluded??? AND THERE IS NO WHITE LASER!!!!!
Posted by: Canis Lupus
hehe, without credible sources, "white" laser is heresay ... just coz my family and my relatives tell me that santa claus and the tooth fairy exist, doesn't mean they do... or maybe those ~200 techs/pranksters have a nastier sense of humor than I do
just one link to a credible source is all I'm asking
Posted by: Canis Lupus
White Paper: Blue Laser Technology
http://www.smartcomputing.com/edito...p&guid=hh35hm5o
You'll find that in the very last section, "The Road to Digital Entertainment," it says:
2006. Blue-laser optical disc player hardware may become affordable for consumers.
DVD became available to consumers on 1997 ... how can it incorporate blue laser technology, when it says it may become affordable to consumers in the year 2006?
Posted by: Null Actor
The only 'white lasers' that exist are actually three lasers. A red, green, and blue together. And there certainly are not three different lasers in any commercial drive.
Edit: And I would just like to remind people that 'white' is not an individually visible light wavelength. It is the result of combinations of all other wavelengths, which is why the prismatic effect on white light breaks it in to the individual wavelengths.
Basic highschool physics.
Posted by: redwench
actually, a white laser would be an impossibility, since laser beams only travel in straight lines. to get a white laser beam, youd have to position the three generators in the exact same location, which is, naturally, impossible.
if even one of them wasnt exactly in that position, you wouldnt get a white laser, youd get multiple lasers of various colors.
Posted by: Bored
Quote:
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2006. Blue-laser optical disc player hardware may become affordable for consumers.
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Laggy-Canis Lupis-Tolitz Rosel-Site Aministrator, and all other moderators:
Funny I was staring at a blue laser DVD drive at work all day long. I actually opened it and stared at the blue and white laser on three different occasions. The white, red, blue laser issue is even in The Source, Gateway's quick reference HTML guide for tech support, which is written by Gateway and the manufacturers of each individual device that they sell. We even called IMG, Internal Monitoring Group, and asked them about it. This illicited a wierd look from half the people in the building that found out about it. They were like "How many times does that guy have to be told White, Red, Blue?"
Guess they don't know what components go in their own optical drives. No wait! All ten thousand Gateway techs across America have been trained incorrectly as well, and given quick access to incorrect information that somehow accidently leads to the right solution to the client's problems, AND nobody ever noticed until now.
This is the third time I have been attacked on this site in the last two days. Once because I simply pointed out a fundamental flaw in the reasoning behind a scientific theory, whose results I happen to agree with, its just that I don't agree with the way they get them.
A second time because I was making a point that Zelda 64 was too easy. As an example I simply quoted how easily I finished it. Again my intelligence and credibility was attacked instead of one person giving a half assed explaination as to why they didn't think it was too easy. Why would I lie about a fricken game? It was just the same old "What are you smoking?" attitude.
Now I'm expected to believe that Gateway spends $2500-$4500 per head to train entry level techs incorrectly, never mind the fact that their are still several rungs up the ladder that have to be trained. In addition, you expect me to believe a joint guide written by the components' manufacturers is also incorrect? Sure, if you say so...what are you smoking again?
Redwench:
Lasers are not just accidently within a given frequency range, they are created by FILTERING OUT the frequencies you don't want, and amplifying the ones you want to keep. A simple prism, or even a drop of water, allows for perfect seperation and merging of white light to colored and vice versa. Which can then be used to filter the light to exactly the frequency you want. We have Mr. Newton to thank for that discovery too. On the other hand the ones that are actually in optical drives may use purely electronic means, I don't know.
Anyone who gives a damn:
Anyway, what difference does it make now? I try to use some of the skills I've learned in the past few years, both at Gateway and elsewhere, to help people out and what does it get me? Attacked at every turn by people who'd rather argue with me than offer additional advice to the guy I was trying to help.
I was going to say I'd never post again on this site, and be sure to tell others not to come here for help as well. Instead I think I'll stick around and tick people off until I can find some documentation that won't cost me my job just for posting. As far as I'm concerned I'm 2-0 for pissing contests now anyway, so I may as well shoot for 3-0 now that this one's in full throttle.
P.S.
For the temporaly challenged: I started writing this before the topic was finished, so if something seems to not make sense in the context of this thread alone refer back to the original one.
See you real soon.
Posted by: Outlaw
Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
Anyway, what difference does it make now? I try to use some of the skills I've learned in the past few years, both at Gateway and elsewhere, to help people out and what does it get me? Attacked at every turn by people who'd rather argue with me than offer additional advice to the guy I was trying to help.
I was going to say I'd never post again on this site, and be sure to tell others not to come here for help as well. Instead I think I'll stick around and tick people off until I can find some documentation that won't cost me my job just for posting. As far as I'm concerned I'm 2-0 for pissing contests now anyway, so I may as well shoot for 3-0 now that this one's in full throttle.
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C'mon man, this is a forum, shit like this just happens sometimes. There will always be someone that knows it better and wants to be right, no matter what. Hell, I'm that person too sometimes...
The fact that it happened to you 3 times right after you registered is just a coincidence.
Just give it another chance.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
I never even once attacked you, Bored. I was attacking your "facts" ... one thing I frown upon is misinformation, and I am always in the pursuit for facts. I provided numerous links supporting my side of the discussion, and I gave you the benefit of a doubt and even asked for just one link to prove what you were talking about.
In this forum where technology is the focus, you will always encounter debates like this. I cannot just open myself up to whatever people say. I need to find the real deal. Misinformation in any form might spell the difference between being knowledgeable enough to fix my system or being too clueless to even explain what I'm doing.
These types of discourses may be treated differently by several types of people. Some consider it a challenge. Some consider it a healthy avenue for telling people what they know. And others regard it as a point of intimidation and misinterpret a debate on technology as a personal attack on them.
For example, if someone tells a person that the only way for him to fix an email problem is to reformat, do I stay still and do nothing? I question that solution, and if the person who gave that solution reiterates that it's the right thing to do, I ask for proof. Nothing more, nothing less.
Since the discussion has shied away from technical support and strayed into a technology debate, I split it off the main topic.
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Now I'm expected to believe that Gateway spends $2500-$4500 per head to train entry level techs incorrectly, never mind the fact that their are still several rungs up the ladder that have to be trained. In addition, you expect me to believe a joint guide written by the components' manufacturers is also incorrect? Sure, if you say so...what are you smoking again?
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Honestly, I still can't believe it. I would have to ask a friend of mine who works in Gateway to provide me with their tech guide, just so I can see where this info is written. It's just, well, outrageous, for lack of a better word. I am allowed to make that assessment, am I?
I for one am surprised that, for a member of a high IQ society as stated in your user title, you are not willing to engage in intellectual debates that focus on facts.
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I was going to say I'd never post again on this site, and be sure to tell others not to come here for help as well. Instead I think I'll stick around and tick people off until I can find some documentation that won't cost me my job just for posting. As far as I'm concerned I'm 2-0 for pissing contests now anyway, so I may as well shoot for 3-0 now that this one's in full throttle.
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Entirely your choice on this one. Debates, discussions, arguments, pissing contests. We're all discussing technology here. And the fact that seasoned techs are offering information contrary to what is publicly published is fuelling this debate further and is intriguing a lot of the users who took part in this discourse.
We appreciate your views very much, but you should also appreciate ours.
Posted by: Finster
Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
This is the third time I have been attacked on this site in the last two days. Once because I simply pointed out a fundamental flaw in the reasoning behind a scientific theory, whose results I happen to agree with, its just that I don't agree with the way they get them.
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Yeah, I read that thread. Your physics was actually pretty far off the mark, and when someone refuted your arguments with facts, you backed off and told them to read more books, obviously because you could not respond in kind.
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Now I'm expected to believe that Gateway spends $2500-$4500 per head to train entry level techs incorrectly, never mind the fact that their are still several rungs up the ladder that have to be trained. In addition, you expect me to believe a joint guide written by the components' manufacturers is also incorrect? Sure, if you say so...what are you smoking again?
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Okay, there are 3 possibilities here.
1) You are clueless.
2) You are lying and don't want to admit you're wrong.
3) Gateway really does provide false technical info to its techs.
Bored, I used to work for Sento Corp., a company that provides outsourced tech support for GATEWAY. My Uncle used to work for Gateway internal at their Salt Lake plant. He was a supervisor there. So, I happen to know quite a few people who are intimately familiar with Gateway, both from a tech support standpoint, and from within the company itself. (Not to mention, that when Gateway closed its Salt Lake City plant, there a large number of internal tech support that were laid off and came to take calls for Sento Corp. Also, Gateway started in my home state of SD, but that really doesn't have anything to do with this.) Now, none of the people who still work at Gateway have any idea what the hell you are talking about. My uncle laughed at me.
Based on this, I have eliminated 3) as a possibility. Therefore, you receive the coveted I-Can't-Admit-I'm-Wrong-So-I'd-Rather-Look-Clueless award.
Quote:
Anyone who gives a damn:
Anyway, what difference does it make now? I try to use some of the skills I've learned in the past few years, both at Gateway and elsewhere, to help people out and what does it get me? Attacked at every turn by people who'd rather argue with me than offer additional advice to the guy I was trying to help.
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Well, I gave my advice to the guy, but like Canis said, I'm not going to stand by and let false information be perpetuated as truth. And also like Canis said, if you show me FACTS, if you give me SOURCES, I will read them, and will change my incorrect ideas accordingly.
Posted by: Finster
Guys, I just got done with an on-line chat with Gateway. I will post the full chat log:
There is 1 question ahead of you, thank you for waiting.
Gateway Remote Assistance: Welcome to Gateway Remote Assistance, George Walker!
You are next in line, thank you for waiting.
Your Remote Assistance Representative will join you momentarily.
Gateway Remote Assistance: Your Remote Assistance Representative, Megan D., has arrived.
Gateway Remote Assistance: Sharing customer's computer.
Megan D.: Hello George , Welcome to Gateway Remote Assistance. My name is Megan, badge number 661188. We have enabled screen-sharing, which allows us to see your screen and share your mouse controls. Please allow me a moment to access your system information and review your issue.
Megan D.: I need to confirm what version of Windows you have loaded and if this is the system with the issue?
George Walker: Windows XP, no it is not the system, i just have a question
George Walker: I imagine you receieve the same Gateway training as everyone else, do they tell you what kind of lasers are used in CD/DVD drives?
Megan D.: From your description I understand that you want to know about the laser that the CD and DVD use.
George Walker: yes, that is correct
Megan D.: One moment, please.
George Walker: ok
Gateway Remote Assistance: Please see
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0...ecordable%2BDVD
George Walker: EXCELLENT
George Walker: thank you very much
LOL!!!!
Anyone who views the site that was given to me by Gateway tech support will clearly see that Bored is FULL OF CRAP!!!!
On a side note, white lasers are impossible, because by definition, a LASER beam is made up of coherent photons. Coherent = same frequency and phase. If you have white light, like was stated earlier, you have photons of many different frequencies. Therefore, white light will NEVER EVER be coherent. By definition, it's not possible.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Finster, please keep namecalling at a minimum ... no need to add insult to injury...
Posted by: Finster
Quote:
Originally posted by Canis Lupus
Finster, please keep namecalling at a minimum ... no need to add insult to injury...
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Sorry... I call it like it is, and I have a low tolerance for stupidity. Sometimes this is a bad combination for me. I will exercise more restraint.
But... still... this guy really is out of line.
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
Redwench:
Lasers are not just accidently within a given frequency range, they are created by FILTERING OUT the frequencies you don't want, and amplifying the ones you want to keep. A simple prism, or even a drop of water, allows for perfect seperation and merging of white light to colored and vice versa. Which can then be used to filter the light to exactly the frequency you want. We have Mr. Newton to thank for that discovery too. On the other hand the ones that are actually in optical drives may use purely electronic means, I don't know.
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I'm sorry, you are wrong. You need to go read up on how lasers work, because you don't filter out what you don't want. That's backwards to how they work. You agitate certain atoms in order to produce exactly the light you do want. The only filtering involved is to make sure the only photons that escape are the parallel ones.
While some lasers do work by having intense light flashed on the lasing medium, this is just one way of doing it, and is completely secondary to how the laser itself works, since normal electricity can accomplish the same feat (after all, all you need to do is pass the atoms enough energy to bump their electrons up to a higher power level, since when they drop back is how all light is produced blah blah blah highschool physics). At the very least, filtering is the wrong word, since 'filtering' implies blocking out that which you do not want, while what you are actually doing is using the energy of the light that is flashed on the medium.
Posted by: SpaceGhost
Ok, this thread is being beaten to death, but I'll put in my 2 cents . . .
Speaking as someone who has actually BUILT lasers, I can say with absolute certainty that there is no such thing as a "white" laser, that blue lasers are not in use in any commercial CD or DVD drive, and that you do not "filter" to create a laser . . .
There are numerous ways to produce laser light, but it all boils down to a few simple ideas: 1. You stimulate atoms to higher energy states; 2. Those atoms emit photons at specific frequencies, dependent on how those energy states you excited decay; 3. The photons emitted from those atoms stimulate other atoms to emit photons of the same frequency in phase with the photon incident upon it.
Most lasers also employ a cavity whereby photons are reflected back and forth inside the cavity further stimulating coherent emission of photons greatly amplifying the output.
The type of laser Null was talking about is generally known as a "flash-pumped" laser - it uses very intense light flashed upon the generating medium to excite the atoms to the higher energy levels. You can also stimulate lasers with chemical reactions, electric fields, magnetic fields, and the list goes on.
It is entirely possible that somewhere along the line Bored was told about "white", "red", and "blue" lasers as LABELS for the different types without the color references actually talking about the "color" of the laser light. Since the read laser uses a different power than the write lasers, they may refer to it as "white" and the "red" and "blue" designations may imply that the wavelength of the DVD laser is shorter than that of the CD (which it is, it just isn't actually in the blue wavelength range).
Oh, well, I've droned on long enough.
Posted by: Spider
lol
Posted by: Bored
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It is entirely possible that somewhere along the line Bored was told about "white", "red", and "blue" lasers as LABELS for the different types without the color references actually talking about the "color" of the laser light. Since the read laser uses a different power than the write lasers, they may refer to it as "white" and the "red" and "blue" designations may imply that the wavelength of the DVD laser is shorter than that of the CD (which it is, it just isn't actually in the blue wavelength range).
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This is very possible now that you mention it. I had considered the possibility that "white" was a label used for the read laser to avoid confusion, but I had it repeatedly explained to me as though they were the actual colors of the lasers. If this is true, maybe everyone just gets in the habit of refering to those labels and forget that the actual laser isn't that color? After doing my own research on this it seems to be the only explaination that makes any sense in light of a few links I'm gong to paste at the end of this post.
Also I found some information on the concept of an actual "white laser". I found that "white" light can be "partially coherent" over very short distances, ergo a laser-like beam of light. However, it wouldn't be useful for reading from a disc because each individual color of light would rebound at a different angle as it hits the pits and lands, which is totally useless for the level of precision needed in data retreaval. This part isn't online, so I can't post any of it.
Oldest article I could find about a working DVD drive that uses blue laser technology:
http://www.japantechnologyupdates.c...7Matsushita.htm
Experimental "red laser light particle" optical disk technology that can store ~100GB per surface per layer on a CD size disk. INSANE potential if they can incorporate blue laser technology and/or layering into this.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/arc...7/29/0000158161
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