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Warning: America is Experiencing Technical Difficulties
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Posted by: AltronHGX
Please stand by.
Posted by: Spider
Very nice.
Posted by: redwench
roffle.
indeed.
Posted by: Bored
You say that now, but if smallpox gets released on the world you'll be singing a totally different tune. I am assuming this is in reference to the recent policies involving Iraq. Not everything that happens in government is a scandal or someone's bid for more power. Whether you are aware of it or not, our leaders have access to mounds of classified information that they use to make their informed decisions and policies.
You can't judge their decisions based on the very small amount of declassified information that the public has. Requesting that such information be divulged to the media is also not wise since everyone in the world would know what we know and also be able to pinpoint the contacts that provide the information. Personally I think our governement has been soft for far too long, especially in the military related issues.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
Whether you are aware of it or not, our leaders have access to mounds of classified information that they use to make their informed decisions and policies.
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You are assuming that all our leaders have the people's best interests in mind when they make policies ... that is not always true, whether you are aware of it or not.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
You say that now, but if smallpox gets released on the world you'll be singing a totally different tune.
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And what does smallpox have to do with the price of oil in the Middle East? 
Nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that it was a good link ... there's a lot of truth in it - if you're not too blinded by what the government tells the media to tell you...
Posted by: Shalome
I love it. Alt, where did you come across that?
Posted by: ZeRo_MaXwInG
Posted by: Bored
No, I'm not blinded by what the media tells me to think. I'm keenly aware of the "Wag the Dog" type rumors that suggests that the president(s) have been basicly inventing wars for their own interest whether politcal or financial. However, you cannot ignore the fact that if the president and CIA claim they have evidence of Iraq having smallpox, VX gas, and a delivery system then you have two options. You can either believe they are telling the truth, at least about the information they have given out, or assume that everything they say is a lie.
Don't watch Wag the Dog too much either.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Just as you are entitled to believe everything the government tells you, I am also entitled to my own opinions and interpretations on the government's intentions ... last time I checked, that's what this country stood for - freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and freedom of choice...
Ain't it great to live in a free country, where people are allowed to think on their own?
Posted by: redwench
and guess what? neither small pox nor nerve gases are really all that dangerous in the modern era. assuming that the troops arent vaccinated against the former, and outfitted against the latter. theyre about as effective as anthrax, which is to say, not very.
oh yes, we also have smallpox, anthrax, and various nerve gases. i dont see anyone freaking about us using them.
Posted by: elhior_manwe
I have said it once or more in these forums if Iraq has all sorts of weapons chemical and biological I would only be worried if I live in Iraq Iran or anywhere in the vicinity. He does not want to live in a cave in Afghanistan he has no reason to attack Americans and never has done so. Why should we fear death by VX, I am more afraid of lightning and land sharks.
Thanks Altron very good.
Posted by: AngstMerchant
Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
Not everything that happens in government is a scandal or someone's bid for more power.
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Yes Bored, but even a self-important arbitrary gathering of insecure pseudo-intellectuals would be able to tell you that the actions of the current American regime don't add up. We receive word from North Korea (a country that we were in a hot military action against less than 60 years ago) that they have nuclear weapons and no reservations about using them yet Dubya's administration continues to focus on a theoretically possible but extremely improbable weapons development situation in Iraq?? And the current Chief Executive is the son of an oil magnate and stands to make a pot of money for his friends and family if he was to, oh, maybe, eradicate Saddam Hussein and his existing state of dictatorship and replace the legislative potential in a rebuilt Iraq with a CEO doll in a pin-stripe suit that says "Yes! Put your oil interests right here, America!" when you pull his string.
You would do well to pay attention to the things that we do know and put a little less faith in what the government makes sure you don't know.
Posted by: Shalome
Everyone needs to read this. Here, HAVE SOME FACTS. It's lengthy, but the information in it is valuable -- and I posted the whole article because I know half of you wouldn't have clicked through. Snopes has verified all the information in it. I've highlighted parts I thought were most important, for all you skimmers. Enjoy.
Words of Wisdom About Gas, Germs, and Nukes
By SFC Red Thomas, Armor Master Gunner
U.S. Army (Ret) 10.19.01
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since the media have decided to scare everyone with predictions of chemical, biological, or nuclear warfare on our turf I decided to write a paper and keep things in their proper perspective. I am a retired military weapons, munitions, and training expert.
Lesson number one: In the mid 1990s there was a series of nerve gas attacks on crowded Japanese subway stations. Given perfect conditions for an attack, less than 10% of the people there were injured (the injured were better in a few hours) and only one percent of the injured died. CBS-Television's 60 Minutes once had a fellow telling us that one drop of nerve gas could kill a thousand people. He didn't tell you the thousand dead people per drop was theoretical. Drill Sergeants exaggerate how terrible this stuff is to keep the recruits awake in class (I know this because I was a Drill Sergeant too).
Forget everything you've ever seen on TV, in the movies, or read in a novel about this stuff, it was all a lie (Read this sentence again out loud!). These weapons are about terror, if you remain calm, you will probably not die.
This is far less scary than the media and their "experts" make it sound. Chemical weapons are categorized as Nerve, Blood, Blister, and Incapacitating agents. Contrary to the hype of reporters and politicians, they are not weapons of mass destruction. They are means of "Area Denial," effective to keep an enemy out of a particular zone for a limited period of time: terror weapons that don't destroy anything. When you leave the area you almost always leave the risk.
That's the difference; you can leave the area and the risk. Soldiers may have to stay put and sit through it and that's why they need all that spiffy gear.
These are not gasses; they are vapors and/or airborne particles. Any such agent must be delivered in sufficient quantity to kill or injure, and that defines when and how it's used.
Every day we have a morning and evening atmospheric inversion where "stuff," suspended in the air gets pushed down. This inversion is why allergies (pollen) and air pollution are worst at these times of the day.
So, a chemical attack will have its best effect an hour of so either side of sunrise or sunset. Also, being vapors and airborne particles, the agents are heavier than air, so they will seek low places like ditches, basements and underground garages. This stuff won't work when it's freezing, it doesn't last when it's hot, and wind spreads it too thin too fast.
Attackers have to get this stuff on you, or, get you to inhale it, for it to work. They also have to get the concentration of chemicals high enough to kill or injure you: too little and it's nothing, too much and it's wasted. What I hope you've gathered by this point is that a chemical weapons attack that kills a lot of people is incredibly hard to achieve with military grade agents and equipment. So you can imagine how hard it would be for terrorists. The more you know about this stuff, the more you realize how hard it is to use.
A Case of Nerves
We'll start by talking about nerve agents. You have these in your house: plain old bug killer (like Raid) is nerve agent. All nerve agents work the same way; they are cholinesterase inhibitors that mess up the signals your nervous system uses to make your body function. It can harm you if you get it on your skin but it works best if you to inhale it. If you don't die in the first minute and you can leave the area, you're probably going to live.
The military's antidotes for all nerve agents are atropine and pralidoxime chloride. Neither one of these does anything to cure the nerve agent. They send your body into overdrive to keep you alive for five minutes. After that the agent is used up. Your best protection is fresh air and staying calm. Listed below are the symptoms for nerve agent poisoning.
Sudden headache, Dimness of vision (someone you're looking at will have pinpointed pupils), Runny nose, Excessive saliva or drooling, Difficulty breathing, Tightness in chest, Nausea, Stomach cramps, Twitching of exposed skin where a liquid just got on you.
If you are in public and you start experiencing these symptoms, first ask yourself, did anything out of the ordinary just happen, a loud pop, did someone spray something on the crowd? Are other people getting sick too? Is there an odor of new mown hay, green corn, something fruity, or camphor where it shouldn't be?
If the answer is yes, then calmly (if you panic you breathe faster and inhale more air/poison) leave the area and head upwind, or outside. Fresh air is the best "right now antidote." If you have a blob of liquid that looks like molasses or Karo syrup on you; blot it or scrape it off and away from yourself with anything disposable.
This stuff works based on your body weight: What a crop duster uses to kill bugs won't hurt you unless you stand there and breathe it in real deep, then lick the residue off the ground for while.
Remember, the attackers have to do all the work, they have to get the concentration up and keep it up for several minutes, while all you have to do is quit getting it on you and quit breathing it by putting space between yourself and the attack.
Bad Blood and Blisters
Blood agents are cyanide or arsine. They affect your blood's ability to provide oxygen to your tissues. The scenario for attack would be the same as nerve agent. Look for a pop or someone splashing or spraying something and folks around there getting woozy or falling down. The telltale smells are bitter almonds or garlic where it shouldn't be. The symptoms are blue lips, blue under the fingernails, and rapid breathing.
The military's antidote is amyl nitride and, just like nerve agent antidote, it just keeps your body working for five minutes till the toxins are used up. Fresh air is the your best individual chance
Blister agents (distilled mustard) are so nasty that nobody wants to even handle them, let alone use them. Blister agents are just as likely to harm the user as the target. They're almost impossible to handle safely and may have delayed effects of up to 12 hours. The attack scenario is also limited to the things you'd see from other chemicals. If you do get large, painful blisters for no apparent reason, don't pop them. If you must, don't let the liquid from the blister get on any other area: the stuff just keeps on spreading. Soap, water, sunshine, and fresh air are this stuff's enemy.
Bottom line on chemical weapons (and it's the same if they use industrial chemical spills): They are intended to make you panic, to terrorize you, to herd you like sheep to the wolves. If there is an attack, leave the area and go upwind, or to the sides of the wind stream. You're more likely to be hurt by a drunk driver on any given day than be hurt by one of these attacks. Your odds get better if you leave the area. Soap, water, time, and fresh air really deal this stuff a knock-out-punch. Don't let fear of an isolated attack rule your life. The odds are really on your side.
Up and Atom
Nuclear bombs: These are the only weapons of mass destruction on Earth. The effects of a nuclear bomb are heat, blast, EMP, and radiation. If you see a bright flash of light like the sun, where the sun isn't, fall to the ground! The heat will be over a second. Then there will be two blast waves, one out going, and one on its way back. Don't stand up to see what happened after the first wave. Wait. Everything that's going to happen will have happened in two full minutes.
Any nuclear weapons used by terrorists will be low yield devices and will not level whole cities. If you live through the heat, blast, and initial burst of radiation, you'll probably live for a very very long time. Radiation will not create fifty foot tall women, or giant ants and grasshoppers the size of tanks. These will be at the most 1 kiloton bombs; that's the equivalent of 1,000 tons of TNT.
Here's the real hazard: Flying debris and radiation will kill a lot of exposed (not all)! people within a half mile of the blast. Under perfect conditions this is about a half mile circle of death and destruction, but when it's done it's done.
EMP stands for Electro Magnetic Pulse and it will fry every electronic device for a good distance. It's impossible to say what and how far, but probably not over a couple of miles from ground zero is a good guess. Cars, cell phones, computers, ATMs, you name it, all will be out of order. There are lots of kinds of radiation, but , physically,you only need to worry about three: alpha, beta, and gamma. The others you have lived with for years.
You need to worry about "Ionizing radiation," little sub atomic particles that go whizzing along at the speed of light. They hit individual cells in your body, kill the nucleus and keep on going. That's how you get radiation poisoning: You have so many dead cells in your body that the decaying cells poison you. It's the same as people getting radiation treatments for cancer, only a bigger area gets irradiated.
The good news is you don't have to just sit there and take it, and there are lots you can do rather than panic. First, your skin will stop alpha particles, a page of a news paper or your clothing will stop beta particles. Then you just have to try and avoid inhaling dust that's contaminated with atoms that are emitting these things and you'll be generally safe from them.
Gamma rays are particles that travel like rays (quantum physics makes my brain hurt) and they create the same damage as alpha and beta particles only they keep going and kill lots of cells as they go all the way through your body. It takes a lot to stop these things, lots of dense material. On the other hand it takes a lot of this to kill you.
Your defense is as always to not panic. Basic hygiene and normal preparation are your friends. All canned or frozen food is safe to eat. The radiation poisoning will not affect plants, so fruits and vegetables are OK if there's no dust on them (Rinse them off if there is). If you don't have running water and you need to collect rain water or use water from wherever, just let it sit for thirty minutes and skim off the water gently from the top. The dust with the bad stuff in it will settle and the remaining water can be used for the toilet which will still work if you have a bucket of water to pour in the tank.
The Germs' Terms
Finally there's biological warfare. There's not much to cover here. Basic personal hygiene and sanitation will take you further than a million doctors. Wash your hands often, don't share drinks, food, sloppy kisses, etc., ...with strangers. Keep your garbage can with a tight lid on it, don't have standing water (like old buckets, ditches, or kiddy pools) laying around to allow mosquitoes breeding room.
This stuff is carried by vectors, that is bugs, rodents, and contaminated material. If biological warfare is as easy as the TV makes it sound, why has Saddam Hussein spent twenty years, millions, and millions of dollars trying to get it right? If you're clean of person and home, eat well and are active, you're going to live.
Overall preparation for any terrorist attack is the same as you'd take for a big storm. If you want a gas mask, fine, go get one. I know this stuff and I'm not getting one and I told my Mom not to bother with one either (How's that for confidence?). We have a week's worth of cash, several days worth of canned goods and plenty of soap and water. We don't leave stuff out to attract bugs or rodents so we don't have them.
These terrorist people can't conceive of a nation this big with as much resources as it has. These weapons are made to cause panic, terror, and to demoralize. If we don't run around like sheep, they won't use this stuff after they find out it's no fun and does them little good. The government is going nuts over this stuff because they have to protect every inch of America. You only have to protect yourself, and by doing that, you help the country.
Finally, there are millions of caveats to everything I wrote here and you can think up specific scenarios in which my advice wouldn't be the best. This article is supposed to help the greatest number of people under the greatest number of situations. If you don't like my work, don't nitpick, just sit down and explain chemical, nuclear, and biological warfare in a document around three pages long yourself. This is how we the people of the United States can rob these people of their most desired goal, your terror.
SFC Red Thomas (Ret) Armor Master Gunner Mesa, AZ
Unlimited reproduction and distribution is authorized. Just give me credit for my work, and, keep in context.
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Bored
You can't judge their decisions based on the very small amount of declassified information that the public has.
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Yes you can. Can and must. For if the people don't act as a check and balance on the government, then the government isn't really for the people anymore, is it?
If the government is acting in the right, the truth will come out by questioning.
If the government is acting in the wrong, the truth will come out by questioning.
Without questioning, the truth never comes out.
Posted by: Null Actor
And since I've read the article shal posted before, I'll reiterate my stance (which I believe I may have done in some other thread):
I do not worry about these things. The article doesn't surprise me; I take everything the media hypes with more than just a grain of salt. Fear gets them ratings, ratings are all that matters, and therefore, it's in their interest to promote fear. Plus, the news I watch (Mostly CBC) never plays on the whole fear angle. And no offense, but I trust the publicly funded CBC far more than corporate run tv channels that compete for viewers.
On a slightly related note, I don't put any weight in nor do I worry about the threat of terrorist attacks. Why would you? There is nothing you can do about it. A hundred billion dollars a year pumped in to the military can't do anything about it, why would worrying be worth your time?
Posted by: Freak
I posted that in this thread.
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
The hypocracy of the whole situation is sickening. We want to fight Iraq for posessing weapons of mass destruction when our own country probably has more than any other nation. Then the president issues threats saying if you use weapons of mass destruction, so will we.
Welcome to America. Do as we say, not as we do.
Posted by: Freak
Because everybody knows the Americans are the most responsible people on the planet. Looking out for the wellbeing of all and protecting the innocent.
Posted by: Null Actor
... or at least the interests of large corporations. Which is all that really matters in a purely capitalist society.
Posted by: Erekose
well being of the innocents... interests of large corporations... shit you mean there is a difference? well whats all that crap on tv then? a lie?
Posted by: Tweaker
Quote:
http://www.arcadia-animations.com/anims/thumbs%20up.gif 
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
You only have 3 fingers Tweak. 
Posted by: Gunslinger
My new sig.
Posted by: scorpion_gold
the reason that this world is shitty is because those who would make good leaders are too smart to run for office.
Posted by: Tweaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Ion Silverbolt
You only have 3 fingers Tweak.
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I count 4 http://www.opentechsupport.net/foru...cons/icon20.gif
Posted by: Tweaker
Quote:
Originally posted by scorpion_gold
the reason that this world is shitty is because those who would make good leaders are too smart to run for office.
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Or too honest!
Posted by: Xtren
rofl five stars, awesome link
Posted by: uh...ok
Some argue that your thumb is not a finger.
If I went along with that I see 4 fingers and a thumb. (Hint: look at the right side of the GIF).
Of course one would then wonder if that hand is connected to anything.
Yes yes, maybe it's just my lack of sleep kicking in.
-uh...ok
Posted by: Xtren
Ahh I never noticed the little black finger, though it kind of blends in with the background and sticks out of the wrong place (does that count?). Oh and I'm quite certain the hand is somehow connected to the happy face
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