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Microsoft to remove 'swastikas' from fonts
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Hey, we got another case of icons which may be deemed "offensive" by certain quarters of our pseudo-conservative society, so the "morally induced" Microsoft suggests a course of action... This time it's the swastika that's in question (those who aren't familiar what this is should take a look at Adolf Hitler's banners).
Microsoft said Friday that the latest version of its Office software inadvertently contained a font featuring two swastikas, and said it would offer tools to remove and replace the offending characters from the program.
The swastika, which was made infamous by Nazi Germany, was included in Microsoft's "Bookshelf Symbol 7" font. That font was derived from a Japanese font set, said Microsoft Office product manager Simon Marks.
This is really getting a bit out of hand, coupled with the master/slave brouhaha. How long till we have full-grown men asking "Microsoft" to change its name coz they consider it a double blow (triple, if you consider this pun) to their 'member'?
Anyway, full article here.
Posted by: taco_fox
http://home.houston.rr.com/tacofox/tard.gif
Posted by: Erekose
...i concur
Posted by: AOTY2KB
As a Hindu, a swastika (put on the outside of village homes in India) is a sign of good luck and welcome into one's home. The version used by Hitler was inverted. I fail to understand how a few Jewish organizations can overlook such an important fact and persecute the religons of Hinduism and Buddhism.
Posted by: AOTY2KB
Speaking of political correctness I suggest we should use the SI society's politically correct term kibibyte instead kilobyte (1000 bytes) to represent 1024 bytes. Gibi Tibi etc.
**Now if only we could get the large manufacturer's on board, that or cause a anti trust suit against Microsoft for bad business practice and deflaming the SI (Metric) System.**
Posted by: chaosisreality
They are not persecuting the hindu religion, AOTY2KB. From what you've said, you have no idea of the meaning of that symbol, beyond your own religion.
"a few Jewish organizations...", that is a half-assed statement. Other people then jews dislike the swastika (Remember, WWII was fought agains the axis and Hitler's power). If someone were to use a cross symbol to persecute the christians, would that be "A few christian churches"? No, it would be full blown war.
As i stated, you don't even seem to know a thing about the Holocaust. Go to your library and get a book on it, and next time just shut up before you start pointing fingers.
Posted by: taco_fox
 Quote:
Originally posted by chaosisreality
They are not persecuting the hindu religion, AOTY2KB. From what you've said, you have no idea of the meaning of that symbol, beyond your own religion.
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And it seems that you don't think there's a difference between an ancient symbol that has been around for centuries and a modified version of it used by the Nazis.
The only people who would be offended by the former are hyper-sensitive people that are ignorant to facts.
Posted by: chaosisreality
Quote:
Originally posted by taco_fox
And it seems that you don't think there's a difference between an ancient symbol that has been around for centuries and a modified version of it used by the Nazis.
The only people who would be offended by the former are hyper-sensitive people that are ignorant to facts.
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No. You missed my point.
AOTY2KB is nullifying the use of the swastika, and comparing in so. If it is a likeness but modified version of the Hindu/Buddhist symbol, then he shouldn't of brought it up. If they are different, no point.
6 million appox. slaughtered, isn't something you take lightly into consideration.
Posted by: redwench
hmmm, i wonder how many people have been killed under the symbol of the cross over the last 2000 years?
Posted by: chaosisreality
Quote:
Originally posted by redwench
hmmm, i wonder how many people have been killed under the symbol of the cross over the last 2000 years?
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Different scenario. Thats a space of 2000 years. The Holocaust lasted from about 1933 (Hitler's appointment as Chancellor of Germany) to 1945 (Suicide of Hitler and the fall of the Reich).
About every culture in this world has been percecuted, but to ignore past wrongs is to erase the event. I know some people, who believe the Holocaust as concucted by the government to cover up the truth. (Note- I said I KNOW them, I don't accosiate with psychos/paranoids when I can avoid it...). Besides a bunch of bitching and moaning from the peanut gallery that "This is too much" and "Political correctness is taken too far", who does this hurt? There is no reason that the Hindu/Buddhist symbol was in the software (They put it in as a seperate meaning), so throw that out the window. Act as it never existed in the software, even.
What are you left with? An icon that means something to different people, as generalized. Microsoft made a crowd of people happy they removed it, just for what the symbol was. It doesn't matter that nazi germany has fallen, that hitler is dead, but that symbol stands for a subject that is sore in a lot of places.
If you want to continue this fully, it should probably be moved to rants and raves.
Posted by: SpecOpsHoov
Quote:
Originally posted by chaosisreality
There is no reason that the Hindu/Buddhist symbol was in the software (They put it in as a seperate meaning), so throw that out the window.
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...and you would know?
I fail to see how AOTY2KB is pointing fingers by stating an ancient tradition, something that is fact. Microsoft's "inadvertent" mistake by including the swastikas could easily be a blatant PR move to please the Jewish community.
Posted by: redwench
theres nothing inherantly evil about the symbol, it pre-existed the nazi party by millenia in many cultures. placating some people that associate it with evil is to deny the many cultures that have used that symbol. its a ludicrous overreaction, its a harmless symbol.
Posted by: chaosisreality
Then there should be no problem of taking a harmless symbol out of the software.
Posted by: Erekose
the problem is not in the action, but in the reasoning behind it. just as any word, any symbol, is inherently null of virtue or vice, it is the motivating factors... what the thing means that is of importance.
the fact is the font type is supposed to include symbols for use, to exclude a symbol is not in and of itsself a bad thing (maybe a stupid and restricting one) but to exclude this symbol for the reasons presented is frankly a cheap ploy to win favor with a small but vocal group.
but that is just one ignorant person's opinion
Posted by: redwench
nope, if they hadnt included it in the first place, that would be fine and dandy. but they are, as evidenced above, offending one group of people in order to placate another. which is rather silly. i think im going to be offended by the cross now. i expect all software to remove any symbols that resemble it pronto.
Posted by: chaosisreality
Um, your going along the same lines again. Microsofts removal of that symbol should not offend them, for they are not desecrating it, but just removing it.
It may be a ploy, but if you go back to the article it says:
Quote:
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The Redmond, Wash.-based software maker said that it had contacted various Jewish organizations about the font and said a utility would be immediately available on its Web site that would remove the characters from the system
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It did not say there was a large outcry from the Jewish community which prompted the removal, but that they removed it and apologized for putting it in there in the first place.
As has been stated the removal does not insult Hindu/Buddhist/Indian culture, because it in no way shames it. The removal itself makes the Jewish community that it might have offended happy.
SO WHAT IS THE ARGUEMENT?
Posted by: AOTY2KB
What I said was "INVERTED" meaning in opposite direction, chaosinreality!
Microsoft wishes to please certain groups of society by taking out a rightous, closely resembling symbol! Not the one used by the Nazi's!
The community or people who wish/es to remove the symbol should understand there is a difference between the swastika and the Nazi Symbol!
For arguments sake, like redwench said, I'm offended by the "Cross" and symbols that represent Judaism! etc. There is no shame in removing it as there is none to ALSO remove the Cross or other Jewish Symbols etc. Just like the swastika resembles closely to the Nazi Symbol, the Cross was actually taken into battle! I am offended by the Cross and how in the past it was used as a means to kill off a certian groups of people. (Muslims and Jews)
The Crusades, the long lived bloody war that still exists to date, very subtly of course.
PS Religion, the root of all evil!
PPS Like redwench states its a harmless symbol, a little thought should be given before taking it out. Isn't walking around blindly and without a clue the job of the government? 
*The writer did not in any way shape or form intentionally try to offend the blind, clueless etc. by not being absolutely politically correct in his written thoughts*
Posted by: AOTY2KB
The article states Microsoft was in contact with various Jewish Organizations. Thus it implies to a certian extent most likely an outcry from some certian Jewish group that was displeased. You don't just change something without some instignation!
Posted by: chaosisreality
Wrong, and Wrong. They changed it so there would be no outcry.
On another note, is the religious name for the Hindu/Buddhist symbol the swastika? I will look that up, but to what you said the Nazi symbol WAS called the swastika. As i said in my first post, read a book on the history of the Holocaust before you try to act on knowledge you don't know.
I got the inverted part AOTY2KB, which is why I said if they are different, there is no arguement between offending the Hindu/Buddhist crowd.
Who is offended by the Christian/Jewish symbols? Self-hating religious, and other religions that hate them for what they practice, and use extreme measures against them (Terrorist Cells).
Religion is not the root of all evil, money and girls are.
Microsoft contacted them to inform them that it had been removed, and apologized. Half of them probably didn't even know. But isn't it nice, that an organization takes the forepoint without any pressure?
Posted by: elhior_manwe
Quote:
Originally posted by chaosisreality As i said in my first post, read a book on the history of the Holocaust before you try to act on knowledge you don't know.
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First I am not sure what books he would need to read? What information does he not get about the holocaust? It was a tragic event in Europe's history. Wars are terrible. I believe he was pointing out the swastika has had other purposes then the symbol of the nazi party. Would more information about the holocaust change that? The swastika was also a pagan symbol representing love and the goddess, sorry can't remember what tradition. Does that make the holocaust less? ofcourse not. I am not sure where I fall on this issue, though. Taking it out does not really affect me either way. But there is a precedence they a setting. Where will it stop, what other symbols will they remove or will people want them to remove.
Posted by: psd#1
To refer to the symbol as inoccent is ignorant. This was the symbol of hatred, death and persecution. You cannot removed the nazi from the swastika just like you can't remove the swastika from the nazi. Truth be told that the symbol existed before the nazi, but the two have become synonymous. Thats a fact that can not be denied by those who consider themselves intelligent and educated.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, yet history has told us that if we ignore the past we are bound to repeat.
-pSd#1
Posted by: redwench
Quote:
Originally posted by psd#1
To refer to the symbol as inoccent is ignorant. This was the symbol of hatred, death and persecution.
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funny, the same thing can be said about the cross.
Posted by: RDW
The point of the argument is not what one knows about the Holocaust; no one is denying that it was a tragedy, and to forget that COULD lead to repeating past mistakes. However, to keep it constantly in vision, and not simply acknowledge it, would be a mistake of equal caliber. Constantly thinking about a tragedy will not help anything or anyone, and instead, will probably lead to some regrettable events.
In today's society, especially in American society, such a symbol as a swastika obviously makes people remember the Holocaust, regardless of whether or not they SHOULD remember it. Therefore, avoiding such a usage when possible, at least for the time being, would be the best path to take. In this case, that is exactly what Microsoft has done. It is irrelevant whether or not Microsoft chose to remove the symbol because of Jewish pressure or to prevent possible Jewish pressure.
As for the symbol representing other things in other cultures, we can safely conclude that such an argument is insufficient for the symbol's use. For example, the possible anger, clearly shown by Chaosisreality, is reason enough to not use the symbol in modern American culture. This is not to say that the symbol should not be used anywhere; it is only saying that by not using the swastika in America, we avoid many possible problems.
Posted by: redwench
while a rational arguement, i disagree. war was over 60 years ago, its time to stop with the irrational reaction to a design, especially since its used for other reasons. when one confuses a real issue such as the holocaust with a nonsense one such as a geometric design, it is not conducive to reasonable behavior. 10 years, even 20 years, fine. but 60 years out is getting ludicrous.
there are many holocausts in miniature going on around the world, people need to spend their efforts addressing those, rather than having hysterics over a symbol that is available in some software.
Posted by: psd#1
60 years of 600 years, it makes no difference. Its important now and will always be important to many people.
Irrational reaction? Making that statement is truly ignorant and shows that you don't understand how one symbol can strike fear into so many. Try telling all those skin heads that the swastika doesn't mean anything, maybe then they'll stop defacing temples and grave stones.
This is not irrational, trying to trivialize this issue is ignornant.
Posted by: RDW
I agree entirely Maybe I was a bit unclear...
It IS only a symbol, and people SHOULD not associate it with a regime that is long since dead. I agree wholeheartedly. But, unfortunately, that misses the point of the problem.
While rational people will regard the symbol as "just a symbol", we do live in the real world where people usually do not act rationally. As such, many Jewish people, and many other sects besides, will interpret a swastika as a sign of the Nazi group, as well as a tool of remembering the Holocaust.
I realize that the symbol was in use before the Nazis, and it is very important to remember that I do not intend to say that it SHOULD be the constant and lasting symbol of the Nazis. With that in mind, we must apply the path that will upset the fewest amount of people, and create the fewest problems. Given that people, regardless of being correct in their thoughts, regard the swastika as a sign of Nazis, it should not be used in American society as long as that relationship between the swastika and the Nazis exists. Taking that path will keep the most people happy, or in other words, will not offend a large number of persons, is the only option left, as Microsoft has done.
Of course, I doubt Microsoft put such thoughts into the matter, they probably had some guy give them an angry phone call and it was all over from there 
Posted by: RDW
Sorry, another post came in, i meant that i agree with Redwench's last post.
Posted by: psd#1
As long as there is nazi-related setiment in the US and also across the globe this symbol will be used to stir up hate. It is clear that the skin-head movement is not dead, and as long as they live this swastika will have many followers swear their allegiance in hate.
Posted by: RDW
The "Skin head movement", as you put it, seems quite dead to me. Given, there are people out there who will follow those rules, but then again, there are people who follow pretty much anything. To say that a Nazi group is alive is possible; however, to consider a group like that anymore of a threat than say, the KKK, would be a mistake.
Regardless, the symbol shouldn't be used in the US, for reasons above ^^
Posted by: chaosisreality
Psd, thank you, because you do understand.
I was telling him to read some literature on the Holocaust, because it seemed to me he did not grasp it beyond "A terrible event in history, that did not involve me". If anyone is interested, I will send them some websites over a pm on the subject.
Yes, you can say the same thing about a cross, a star of David, any symbol. Who knows, maybe the McDonalds sign will one day represent corruption. But the difference is that the cross (Christians/Catholics) have made amends for that, reparations and any thing they could do in that period. Even today, after the fall of Nazi Germany, people use the propaganda and symbols of that time as their "truth". These anti-semites blame all the troubles of the world on the jews, believe every bit of propaganda (crap) that has been printed against their enemies, whether it be true or not. As psd said, the "skin head" movement, that consideres themselves their countries "Patriots", still persecute jews to this day. And there are many other groups, including entire religious sects. Stop throwing the cross as an example. In the present time, almost no christian is persecuted, because they are the majority. Christianity/Catholocism has the most followers in that religion, closely followed by Hinduism I believe.
60 years ago is not that long. Consider how long the United States has been a nation. Then take into effect how long the US has been a world power. I believe I stated in an earlier responce, what makes the Holocaust significant is that they did these crimes in a small amount of time. Approximatly 7 years the Holocaust lasted, with over 6 million Jewish residents killed. That is just the jews, now add in all other minorities they killed on the way.
They removed the symbol to halt any problem. As I have said, Microsoft did NOT do so to offend the Hindu/Buddhists, because all they did was remove it. They did not desecrate it, insult it or so anything. They removed the symbol, and apologized.
Anti-Semitism is still a real threat in our area, not just the Middle East and Isreal. Go on a multiplayer game server with a few of the more veteraned players. In their slang, they will often insult someone by calling him a "jew". Some people, intelligent students from harvard schools will tell you that the Holocaust wasn't real, the problem in the middle east isn't real, and the Jews are pulling the strings everywhere.
The world is going to Hell in a handbasket, and I forgot mine.
Posted by: chaosisreality
Quote:
Originally posted by RDW
The "Skin head movement", as you put it, seems quite dead to me. Given, there are people out there who will follow those rules, but then again, there are people who follow pretty much anything. To say that a Nazi group is alive is possible; however, to consider a group like that anymore of a threat than say, the KKK, would be a mistake.
Regardless, the symbol shouldn't be used in the US, for reasons above ^^
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You put this in while i was typing the above response, sorry.
You think the KKK is dead? That organization might be, but the split up into other "White supremicist groups", under different names, and went into hiding underground. The Skin-heads formed different gangs, went to areas, and are getting away with religius persecution by simply stating the fact that they aren't beating on jews, they beat on a few others and mostly jews. Its sickening.
Posted by: chaosisreality
Found some follow up Info on laggy's article. Apparently, a user sent an e-mail to microsft informing them of this, in which they released the patch promptly to remove it.
Full article here.
Inadvernant, fixed.
Posted by: TotalRecall
Where is the line between erasing history and removing it for fear of offending survivors of that history?
Posted by: RDW
I did not mean the KKK is dead, nor did i mean that all anti semite movements were dead. I know, like you know, that there will ALWAYS be some people who hate a certain thing, be it a certain religion, a color, male/female, etc. Judging one of those groups above another in America may not be the correct thing to say though. For example, I do not believe Jews in the US to be persecuted more than say, blacks, or more abstractly, Mormons and so on.
And just for the sake of discussion...how is it that those "skin head gangs" you mentioned persecute people of certain religions in the US? The US is unbelievably liberal, perhaps to a fault, and i don't think major things would really go down against a certain religion. That is not to say that hate crimes don't exist, but the US is considerably hate free compared to the rest of world, don't stress over it 
Posted by: AOTY2KB
Nice to know there taking out the offending one. Takes the wind out of any argument continuing. Oh well this is my 2 cents worth about what I've read since my last post.
A striking analogy might be that in the 1800’s people of colour were looked down upon, feared and wrongly convicted of crimes they did not commit, etc. Keeping these people in slavery would have kept “most people happy” the people with power of course. It’s like America on its War against Terror freeing the world from communism and dictatorships in place of democracy, the only just way to live. The Americans may have defended Kuwait from the Iraqi Invasion yet overlook the fact of denying women the right to vote, to keep a “majority” of people happy. This is the case in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan as well. (Dictatorships and Limits on Personal Freedoms beyond the extent we see in Canada and the USA) A two-tier system, one of preaching end racism, stereotypes and let’s have freedom of speech, yet overlook those virtues at a convenient time. Like you say (RDW), “Given that people, regardless of being correct in their thoughts, regard the swastika as a sign of Nazis, it should not be used in American society as long as that relationship between the swastika and the Nazis exists.” This may also be applied to the Crusades and how Bush after 9/11 used the word “crusading” (PR Department should have been a bit more sensitive to the times), we should remove the cross from the font as well. The Crusades and Cross, still have there repercussions to date, it can still be felt within the Muslim society here and the Middle East after 9/11. Or so they believe. Maybe if the states have an atheistic President, we might have one how thinks from his head logically, not from the Bible and his understanding of it. No culture or symbol is perfect. As long as the swastika lives there will be many who hold allegiance of love and luck. It will only take time before Christianity will become a minority; it already is in some parts of the world. The religious totals are, Christianity, Islam then Hinduism. This is not about the Nazi’s apologizing, but the evasion of educating people how the symbol happened to be taken out of context. I have never stated that Microsoft intentionally offended Hindus/Buddhists, yet due to lack of knowledge of the general public it is being used as a symbol of hate. If some “Peace Fanatic” for lack of a better term, or deranged person sees it without knowing any better they might go to the ends of killing a person who clutches on to the symbol. Remember the Sikh convenience store owner killed in the USA after 9/11 because he wore a turban, it was due to lack of education.
Posted by: RDW
Gotta love a good argument when there's time to burn...here goes
I agree with just about every point in your post AOT, the only problem is that its a bit of a harsh judgement. First, i do not agree with most of what the US government does as a matter of foreign affairs, but in general, the goal of a good government is to make sure the people of the country maintain a certain level of "happiness", for lack of a better word. When i said "make the most people happy" I chose my words poorly. For example, i am not recommending slavery because the majority may like it. Rather, I would outlaw slavery because a minority (blacks) would fall under the mandatory level of "happiness".
As for president Bush's use of the word crusade, I would not give that man too much credit. I doubt he could use the word if it was not on a cue card. Still, would his use of the word crusade, obviously in this context as an attempt to inspire moral fervor, really warrant banning the symbol of a cross? I think the analogy is pretty far off in this case. For one, a swastika is a symbol that many, though not all, people find offensive as a reminder of the Nazi's, regardless of whether or not they should find it offensive. On the other hand, the use of the word crusade does not inspire something obviously offensive, at least in the US.
Although, now that i think about it more, I can see where you are coming from. Some Americans have the idea that all Middle Eastern people are terrorists. Chalk it up to classic US ignorance and propaganda.
An atheistic president would be something to see, not too sure how that would actually work out though. For instance, do you really think Bush does all of the thinking for his actions? He has a cabinet of quite of a few people that do that for him. An atheistic president would proabably turn out the same way. As long as Ralph Nader and the Eco Hippies (prepares for a flame) do not get office, I'll be alright with it.
American ignorance is a virtue in itself man, i agree with you entirely on that. Ah well 
Posted by: chaosisreality
Mang, I'll leave that flame for the next guy. The Media (Television) uses propaganda, but that doesn't mean the media is nescesarally propaganda itself.
AOTY2KB, to put it as gently as I can, take the veil off and open your eyes to the world, because your going to be hit hard with the truth soon. It is true that in America, religious persecution is not as bad as in other countries, but everything is not OK. In Public high schools, you may find mini-gangs, kids just trying to when they grow up. But how about full-grown adults, who are able to purchase weapons more readily, stronger, and can escape from situations easier too. And what if these people, got the notion that they were better then (Insert Racial/Ethnic/Religious group here), or that any problem they had was caused by the group? The KKK, and the White Supremacists believe, and some still do believe that they were better then African-Americans. The Skinheads, and other Nazi/Anti-Semite groups believe either that they are better then the Jews, so the jews should not live, or that the jews are the root of all the problems in the world. After 9/11, people who called themselves "patriots" (Probably the same ones that were persecuting the jews before, and changed their sights) persecuted anyone they considered to be of an arab country (Hindu/Buddhist/Indian/Arab). They mostly killed anyone they did not like.
US again, is ignorant because what they see on TV isn't always what has happened. An example, a good friend of mine showed me a photograph of an Isreali Militant shooting his gun, which was shown in the media. He then showed me the other half of the photograph, which was the terrorists with bombs and guns themselves shooting at him. Things aren't always what they seem.
Bush? Ha! Ha! (To Altron, continue using the internet). Bush is nothing more then a figure head, who do you think does his work? Anyway, don't get upset over his use of words. Crusade is about as useful as irregardless.
An atheist president? I want to see him nominated in the first place. Every morning, our president talks to Jesus Christ, and then goes to talk to Bush Sr.
Seems that the subject of your foreign policy point will be decided soon, a la Saddam.
Posted by: NightMage
Came on to have a bit of a look at what's been going on and I saw this argument and thought I'd address some issues. As Red said just about every religious symbol has been used in war, and there have also been defamations of each symbol the Hindu swastika was used by North American indians, Hindu's Buddhists, and at one point Christianity. This is where Hitler first saw it, and decided to modify it, originally the symbol meant life and eternity, Hitler changed it to mean Death and Destruction. This is why the Jewish faith have such a problem about it, it is also why it is used commonly amongst teenagers as a rebelious act, at this age they are fascinated by death etc. I'm not saying groups such as the KKK and Neo-Nazi's don't exist they do and are quite prominant. The Neo-Nazi's are like every other religion they await the coming of their saviour, in their case he is a man who wasn't extremely nice. But then the same could be said for Suddam and Bush. The problem I have is that generally German's are all accused of being Nazi's when it was only Hitler and his party and the SS. The armies just obeyed orders. The world would be very different if every army who didn't agree with what their leader said to do, refused to do it. But what's done is done nothing can change that, there is a lot in the history between Judaism and Christianity that could explain why the attack against the Jewish faith. Such as Christians chose to believe that Jesus was the saviour, and so were therefore cast out of the Jewish faith, and forced to struggle against Jews as well as the Romans, until the Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of Rome.
My point is bad things happen and what was it Jesus said oh yes "Forgive thy enemy". And before you have a go at how I don't understand chaos, I am descended from a race that was virtually destroyed.... 300 tribes to 20-30. In about 5 yrs. Look at the percentages of original numbers and final numbers and you will see it was much worse, at least you got an apology 200 yrs later we're still waiting for ours.
Posted by: rockshalton
A SYMBOL IS A SYMBOL IS A SYMBOL.
ALL THE ABOVE ARE VALID TO ITS OPINION.
WHY DO WE USE SYMBOLS.
TO RESEARCH AND TO DOCUMENT IS VALID AND NECCASSARY.
IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO PRESENT ALL SIDES IF SYMBOLS WERE EXCLUDED.
TO EXCLUDE SYMBOLS IS TO EXCLUDE UNDYING PROGRESS.
Posted by: RDW
I pretty much agree with you Chaos, i just don't think hate groups like Neo Nazis and the KKK etc are really capable of getting any power in the US. Still, I am not saying hate crimes dont exist. I am simply saying that an organized anti-something group that actively kills etc is not going to happen in the current US.
Of course, our good friend Bush is trying very hard to make it seem like all arabs are evil terrorists, so the above statement will not apply to overseas affairs.
Only thing i do actually disagree with might be the attitude towards Israel vs Palestine. The US media seems to show Palestine as a group of 100% terrorists, and while there are SOME terrorists, to be sure, the majority is not. On the other hand, we also see photos of Isreali tanks and machine guns firing on people with rocks, and breaking down homes. The translation of these two sides is essentially a war of religions that has been going on for many centuries, and Israel vs Palestine both seem to be using current events to terrorize the other.
I have some family living in Isreal (I am Catholic not Jewish, please tell me about minority after you have been a Catholic in Isreal, heh), and they have told me some stories that the vast majority of Americans would never believe possible
Posted by: rockshalton
To get off the subject a little,
I have always tried to be open minded and supportive to my country.
I know a lot of things go on behind closed doors.
A good portion of our world veiw is derived from our upbringing and by the tube and net.
I have my own mind though sometimes fails a bit.
We all have the essence of right and wrong inside of ourselves.
If a child was tought to hate, he will hate.
Some of us find our own mind.
In this world, you can't have good without evil.
Is good measured by evil?
Posted by: theramins
I do belive the u.s.army air corp had swastikas on some of its air craft during w.w.1 it was used by native Americans and the Finish air force had it on its aircraft in the 30 is before getting help from Germany against Russia do you remember when when you got a moddel kit of w.w.2 german air craft the decal with the swastika was missing or cut up but for the serius modeler you could get them in a good hobby store lets not change history but dont forget I drive a Jap car and I still remember Dec 7
Posted by: chaosisreality
That is World War 1. Don't forget, World War 2 was fought against the Nazis, which is why the "Political correctness" of the swastika comes into play.
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