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What do you think?
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)
Posted by: Yumaddar
http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/klsdorf1.htm
Out of curiousity, what do you guys get from reading this? I'll put up my opinion after a few replys...Assuming someone replys. 0o
Posted by: RAcastClarke
I didn't get through the whole thing, but it makes some good points. I may go back to reading it later. Good article man.
When it comes to the issue of abortion though, I"m neutral.
Posted by: redwench
an exceedingly slanted piece. but he has some good points.
neg: the obvious is that he confuses morality with legality. and opinion with fact, although he does try to cloud that nicely.
pos: one should always address the position, and not the person, hes certainly correct there. although he tries his best with Maher 
the source listed at the bottom of the page indicates why the piece is so one-sided, of course.
Posted by: Yumaddar
"neg: the obvious is that he confuses morality with legality. and opinion with fact, although he does try to cloud that nicely."
Eh? Could you rephraise that?
Posted by: redwench
explain, yes. rephrase, probably not in a useful manner. lets just say he does the same things in a very subtle way that he criticizes in others when they are blatant.
Posted by: Yumaddar
ahI don't see it....Perhaps it's just to subtle for my eyes to see? 0o
Posted by: redwench
ok, heres a few. im not in the mood to wade through that to pick out more.
Mistake #2: Attack the person rather than refute the argument.
abortion advocates like Bill Maher
Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam shrieked from the stage
Abortion advocates like Mary Anne Warren
Mistake #5: Disguise your true position by appealing to the hard cases.
This argument is dangerous. Darwin and his followers used it a century ago to dehumanize women. Their contention was that women were biologically and intellectually inferior because their brains were less developed than a man's.
While driving my sons to a recent baseball game at Dodger Stadium, a young woman in a white pickup truck began tailgating me. Visibly angered by a pro-life sticker on my rear window, she stayed on my bumper for a mile or so. Finally, she pulled beside me and extended a certain part of her anatomy skyward as she passed. She then cut in front of me. At that moment, I noticed a bumper sticker on her truck. It said, "Celebrate Diversity."
She decries "moral supremacism," but says that anyone who disagrees with her view on abortion is an indoctrinator of youth, a fanatic, an anti-Semite, a neo-Nazi, a white supremacist, a manipulator of facts, a purveyor of hate speech, homophobic, a gay-basher, a religious bully, responsible for the death of Matthew Shepherd, and finally, a fundamentalist fanatic like those who murdered Yitzhak Rabin.
And if the unborn entity involved is human, why should she be forced to give up her life so that her mother can feel better?
Mistake #1: Confuse objective claims with subjective ones
While driving my sons to a recent baseball game at Dodger Stadium, a young woman in a white pickup truck began tailgating me. Visibly angered by a pro-life sticker on my rear window, she stayed on my bumper for a mile or so. Finally, she pulled beside me and extended a certain part of her anatomy skyward as she passed. She then cut in front of me. At that moment, I noticed a bumper sticker on her truck. It said, "Celebrate Diversity."
But moral claims are different. They can be evaluated as true or false based on the evidence.
Non-sentient frogs do not become persons simply by acquiring sentience
Again, from the moment of conception the unborn entity has the inherent capacity to have a functioning brain. What it lacks is the current capacity. Hence, there is no ethical difference between it and the reversibly comatose, the momentarily unconscious, etc., who enjoy the protection of law despite their current inability to function as persons.
Posted by: IceBreaker
 Quote:
Originally posted by Yumaddar
"neg: the obvious is that he confuses morality with legality. and opinion with fact, although he does try to cloud that nicely."
Eh? Could you rephraise that?
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In short, as Redwench explained, he is using rhetoric 
Posted by: laborat
I usually dont read stuff like that. been there/ done that /ate the tea and cookies... too much rhetoric and not enough rock and roll...these sort of posts trigger strong debate, heated even...but they never resolve themselves.
Posted by: Yumaddar
Acctually, though I be 'pro-life', I look at the article more as a 'what not to do while debating' article.
Posted by: armystud0911
Well at least it's something in RR that's about George Bush I'm getting kinda sick of that thread and I welcome a new one, but I think ladorat's right, we won't get anywhere.
Posted by: redwench
i thought the original post pertained to the general issue of debating, not the abortion issue. but hey, ill argue about that if anyone wants to
Posted by: armystud0911
wanna go for it red? I've never been good at debating but I'm beginning to learn a few things.
Posted by: Null Actor
I would like this world better if people didn't constantly butt in to other people's lives.
Live and let live, and all that.
Posted by: rockjock
The article makes some good points that are to be applied to debate in general. Some of the examples played against themselves (like Red said) and should have had more thought applied to better demonstrate the point.
I agree with the article in that the anti-life arguments are weak except in actually saving the life of the mother. Most abortions are done for personal convenience. How sad.
Posted by: SKYHN
Talking about Abortion will agrivate Poppy's condition.
Posted by: laborat
I have a big problem with men telling women what they can or can't do with their bodies. It reeks of the days when women were chattle. I have always found it odd that the same people who rant and rave over the rights of a fetus, say nothing about the deaths of young babies from neglect or abandonment. Even animals practice birth control, when confronted with the lack of resources to sustain new life. The myth of man needing to assure the species survives through constant procreation is revealed for what it is, a myth, when one sees the results of what man does to man, what famine does to man, what disease does to man, what man does to himself -- all the result of over-population.
All of the problems in the world today could be solved in an instant if three fourths of the world's population disappeared into the ether.
Posted by: IceBreaker
Quote:
Originally posted by laborat
Even animals practice birth control, when confronted with the lack of resources to sustain new life. The myth of man needing to assure the species survives through constant procreation is revealed for what it is, a myth, when one sees the results of what man does to man, what famine does to man, what disease does to man, what man does to himself -- all the result of over-population.
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http://www.fintoys.net/yabb/yabbima...es/thumbsup.gif Exactly.
This once again underlines the sheer hypocritical cant that people like Bush Jr. and his likes hold forth with: encourage as many births as possible, BUT on the other hand cut down on Social Welfare. Never mind if population growth is left unchecked, never mind if the planet becomes overcrowded & runs out of resources - and in the same breath, they who seem so bent on destroying all living things, proclaim themselves "pro-LIFE" - if that is not the apex of hypocrisy..
This is typical of right-winged politics. If you're unborn, you're well looked after (well, legally speaking at least) - but once you're out, you're on your own...
...in other words, you can leave the womb & enter the tomb for all they care..
Posted by: rockjock
The unborn are not looked after very well "legally speaking". People, just like the animals, are allowed to kill off their unborn as a form of birth control. No, I take that back. Partial birth abortion is murder of a viable infant and look at the people that support this in the name of what? Choice. Well, I choose to think that it is a dismal state of affairs.
Prevention is a thought. Why has abortion become equated with birth control? I am sure that it pleases the multi-million dollar abortion industry.
Posted by: BooRadley
Quote:
Originally posted by redwench
While driving my sons to a recent baseball game at Dodger Stadium, a young woman in a white pickup truck began tailgating me. Visibly angered by a pro-life sticker on my rear window, she stayed on my bumper for a mile or so. Finally, she pulled beside me and extended a certain part of her anatomy skyward as she passed.
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Must've been his bumper sticker. Couldn't have possibly been that he was doing 45 in the passing lane. Nah, must've been upset by his bumper sticker. You can just tell, you know? 
Posted by: redwench
that was my point 
Posted by: BooRadley
I know. Just wanted to emphasise. The guy seemed to like to make assumptions about other people's motives and attack those assumed motives, all while admonishing people for using logical fallacies in their arguments.
Posted by: Oldcrocd
Laborat
When did women stop being chattle, damn nobody told me. I been thinking I could do what I wanted with them. hehe
Just depends on yer chat up line really !
Apart from that couldn't agree with you more, nobody has mentioned that a woman who has been raped is not entitled to an abortion. In some circles they insist she have the child, how twisted can you get making the woman suffer and remember for the rest of that childs life just how he/she was conceived.
Posted by: elhior_manwe
i was only able to read about 1/4 of it...it lost me with his arguement that when he makes a moral argument it is not his actual opinion it is a stament of collective morality, it just seemed confused. maybe i read it wrong i didn't really pay much attention.
and on the abortion issue the debate is so tired, imho. i will do what i consider moral in my life, and those decisions should private and personal. it is legal here in the u.s. and i believe in every other first world country, if you want to save the babies focus on something positive and volunteer your time at an orphanage or become a foster parent, all this anger just doesn't seem productive.
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