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wc3 AT trouble-this is strange
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Posted by: imconfused
well.. where to start...
it all started a couple months ago when i got a new computer. i got my new computer and set up my internet connection through a wireless router.. DLINK 624. I then discovered that I could not host AT games. However, on my original computer, which was hardwired to the router, I was able to host AT games. Seeing that I could not host AT games on my new computer, I jumped to configure my router. It took a while, but with help from DLINK i got it sorted out. Then, a strange thing happened. I can join and host AT games for everyone that I have ever tried on battle.net, except my best friend. This really sucked, because we used to play a lot of AT before I got my new computer. We have both been trying to reconfigure our routers, set static ips (we have tried everything) for about a month and half. I've called my router company, blizzard entertainment, and my ISP about 100 times. No one knows what to do. My friend and I have the same ISP, charter. However, charter said that the fact that we had the same ISP, in the same town, would not make a difference. People have told us to try 'pinging' each other's ips, but we get a 'request timed out.'
anyway, it's a strange situation because we can both join/host everyone else's AT games. neither of us can host/join each others AT games. it's really aggrivating because no one knows what to tell us. could someone please help... if you need additional information just ask 
thanks
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
I've seen this problem plenty of times, and I attribute it to either the players' ISP blocking traffic on port 6112 TCP between them, or the latency of the connection between them is very high. If you don't get a response when you ping each other, that means that one or more firewalls the person being pinged is behind are blocking ICMP packets. If the person being pinged is behind a router, see if the router has a "respond to ping on Internet WAN port" option like mine does (Netgear FR114p). By pinging each other, you will see what the latency of the connection between you two is. If it's very high (maybe like, 500 ms or greater), that could be a problem.
Posted by: imconfused
i dont see a "respond to ping on Internet WAN port." are there any other ways i could check the latency between us. im going to call my ISP and tell them what you said it might be, just to see what they say. i doubt they will do anything, they never do.
would my ISP be blocking traffic just between us 2 or everyone in our node?
Posted by: imconfused
ok i just found the allow WAN pinging thing, and it was already being allowed by my router. however, my friend still can't ping me. i don't understand why this is the case because my firewall says that it is allowed... because of this, we can't check the latency between us. what should our next step be?
Posted by: imconfused
okay, i have made further progress on the issue and i was wondering what you would think on all of this:
i called my ISP and they said that they blocked WAN IP pinging. for this reason, i can't test the latency between my friend and i.
my router manufacturer, dlink, said that this might be a reason that we cant host/join each other's games. i don't think this is correct because no one can ping our ips, and we are able to join/host their games.
basically, i dont know what to do now because my ISP, charter, said that they have plenty of gamers that have no trouble playing with other charter users.
what should i do now?
thanks
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
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are there any other ways i could check the latency between us
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Yes, run a trace route to the other person's IP address. At the command prompt, type the following:
tracert (IP address of person you're running the trace route to)
By running a trace route with the tracert command, you will see how long it takes a packet going from you to your friend to get to each of the "hops" in between you two. If your ISP is blocking ICMP traffic, at the end of the trace route you will see something "destination unreachable", but that doesn't matter.
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would my ISP be blocking traffic just between us 2 or everyone in our node?
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If they really are blocking traffic on port 6112 TCP between you guys, yes, the traffic would be blocked between everyone on your subnet; it wouldn't make sense to block traffic between just two people.
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my router manufacturer, dlink, said that this might be a reason that we cant host/join each other's games. i don't think this is correct because no one can ping our ips, and we are able to join/host their games.
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Your router has nothing to do with this, and yes, that is because you have established that other people can join your games.
So, is your ISP blocking the traffic between you two? I don't think you said what their response was.
Posted by: imconfused
my ISP said that they did not block port 6112, but how will i know if they block traffic between us.. like you said, that doesn't seem very likely b/c why wouuld they block traffic for just us 2.. should i call them again and ask them "is it possible that you could be blocking traffic between 2 useres (my friend and i) in the same subnet?
i did the trace thing and it said "destination net reachable"
note: "net" - (not "not")
Posted by: imconfused
my ISP was kinda rude and said "i dont know why we would block traffic amongst subscribers."
so i take that as a no.
they are kinda hard to deal with on this issue because they say that they don't support gaming, but anyway.. so i guess they dont block traffic
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
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i did the trace thing and it said "destination net reachable"
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Yes, that's what it will say in the end. I just realized something... if you guys are on the same subnet, you won't see any hops in between and you won't see what the latency is. Unfortunately, I can't think of any other tools you could use to check the latency.
If your ISP isn't blocking the traffic, then it has to be the latency, I can't think of what else it would be.
If you guys play any other online games together, are you able to make a connection on another TCP port to each other? If you can't, then it could be your ISP filtering internal traffic, even though they apparently are not.
Posted by: imconfused
we have also played age of empires, and in that game we got what the gamers call an "ip conflict," or "30 ping error." im not sure if u know about aoe and all that, but we can't play together in that either. if my ISP is lying and they are blocking internal traffic.. is there nothing i can do?
i think i left out a peice of info that might be important, on my old computer which was directly connected to the modem, i could host/join my friends games. i am unable to host/join his games on this computer, which is wireless through the router.
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
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we have also played age of empires, and in that game we got what the gamers call an "ip conflict," or "30 ping error."
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If necessary, have you guys configured your routers for playing Age of Empires? That error may have come up as a result of not using port forwarding when you needed to use it.
If your routers are already configured for Age of Empires and the error means that you couldn't connect to each other, then I think that's more evidence that your ISP is filtering internal traffic. When I think about it, I really doubt that the latency of a connection between you two is high enough that you can't play together.
If your ISP is blocking ports between subscribers, all you can do is call them up and ask if it's a temporary thing. If they don't plan on opening the ports, then there's nothing you can do.
If you think that the router is the problem (and I highly doubt that it is, since we have established that other people can connect to you through it), try bypassing it. If your computer isn't near the router, you could try hosting with a computer that is near it.
Posted by: imconfused
yes i configured my router for age of empires also, and i can play with everyone except for my friend. i guess i will just ask my ISP if it is temporary or what.
every time i ask them about that, they say that they don't block traffic, what should i say when they say that?
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
Umm... if you're not inclined to believe them when they say that they're not filtering internal traffic, simply describe the problem you're having and be sure to mention that you can make a connection on port 6112 TCP to everyone else except for your friend. When describing the problem, you really want to drive home the fact that this isn't a problem on your end; all your firewalls are configured properly. Also, say that this isn't a problem with the Battle.net service either, as Battle.net does not host custom games, your computer is the host.
Posted by: imconfused
okay ill try that. the reason i don't believe them is because i don't see what else the problem could be. i don't think they are likely to change anything, but i'll give them another try.
thank you
Posted by: imconfused
my ISP said that they do block certain ports but not 6112. they also said that they do not block internal traffic. they suggested that i called blizzard and ask them if it's a problem with their server if 2 users using the same gateway have too similar and ip/scope.
what do u think about this, i think that my ISP just didn't know what to tell me because they don't support gaming, so as long as i can browse the internet, they are satisfied.
Posted by: armystud0911
it must support gaming if you can play with everyone else
Posted by: imconfused
no, they just say like if you can play that's great, but if you have trouble gaming, there's nothing we can do about it
negotiator: i read a similar post on OTS about someone who could not host and they knew that they router was not the problem. they solved it by having their ISP assign them a static ip. i believe the thread was by awcsron. do u think this would accomplish anything for me?
btw, do u AIM or anything.. it might be easier, because i often see that you are online when i am posting and such.
thanks
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
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they suggested that i called blizzard and ask them if it's a problem with their server if 2 users using the same gateway have too similar and ip/scope.
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Two people on the same subnet behind the same gateway (router on the ISP's end) can play together on Battle.net just fine; my brother and I can play in the same game (we're behind one ISP-assigned IP address, but we're still connecting from behind the same gateway). I have also played on Battle.net with people from my college dorm subnet, and we could join the same game.
I'd agree that the tech you spoke with probably doesn't know what to tell you. This issue does not lie with Battle.net, and it doesn't lie with any firewalls on your end. It lies with your ISP's firewall or its network structure, and the reason I mention the network structure is this: I did a little Googling to find out what possible causes there are of two subscribers to the same ISP being unable to connect to each other, and I found this:
http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~macg/Pubs/sci02.pdf
That document describes the exact problem you're having, where you and your friend (two subscribers to the same ISP) can't connect to each other when you want to play a multiplayer game online. In the scenario that the document presents, the two or more subscribers in question are on the same network subnet, and due to the way the ISP's network is structured, when one player's computer makes an ARP request for another player's computer's MAC address, the request is dropped at the ISP's end and therefore communication can't take place. A MAC (Media Access Control) address is like an IP address, and it is something that your network card is assigned at a lower level in the hierarchy of network communication levels (called the OSI model, Google it for the whole story). ARP stands for Address Resolution Protocol, and when two computers on the same subnet try to communicate with each other, the computer initiating the communication makes a request for the other computer's MAC address. If you and your friend are on the same network subnet and the ARP request is dropped by the ISP, that might explain why you can't connect to each other.
We don't know how your ISP's network is structured for sure, but I think that my theory is worth checking out. If my theory is correct, the solution to your problem (one solution presented in the document) is to add a static entry to your computer's ARP cache that says "my friend's computer's MAC address is associated with this IP address". By doing this, you will get around your ISP's dropping the ARP request. Now, to do this, I think you and your friend would have to connect your computers directly to your cable modems; if you didn't do that, your routers would be the devices that would need to have the static entries in their ARP tables, and I honestly don't know how to do that. When your computer is directly hooked into your cable modem, right before you host a game and your friend attempts to join it, go here and follow the steps:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows200...pCacheEntry.htm
What you put in will look like this:
arp -s (your friend's ISP-assigned IP address) (the MAC address of your friend's network card)
Have your friend do the same on his computer, but with your ISP-assigned IP address and your friend's MAC address.
This is really just a wild guess at a possible solution, but if you're desperate, it wouldn't hurt to check it out. If anyone more knowledgeable about this than I am sees any holes in my theory/solution, please point them out.
Note: all of this is assuming that you guys are on the same subnet! If you're not sure if you are, before you bother with all this, post back and I'll show you how to find out.
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negotiator: i read a similar post on OTS about someone who could not host and they knew that they router was not the problem. they solved it by having their ISP assign them a static ip. i believe the thread was by awcsron. do u think this would accomplish anything for me?
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In that case, the person's ISP was assigning him a non-routable IP address; he got a routable one when he chose his ISP's static-address plan. Your ISP hasn't assigned you a non-routable IP address, so you don't have to worry about that.
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btw, do u AIM or anything.. it might be easier, because i often see that you are online when i am posting and such.
thanks
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Yes, I do have AIM, but I don't give out my screenname to people I don't know personally, sorry. If you'd like to chat on Battle.net, I can go for that.
Posted by: imconfused
wow. thanks for taking the time to look into that, i will give it a try. i am fairly sure that we are on the same subnet, but if you don't mind telling me how to double check that would be appreciated
thank you negotiator
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
To find out if you guys are on the same subnet, go to this link:
http://www.cotse.com/networkcalculator.html
Scroll down to where it says "Network/Node calculator", fill in the subnet mask and IP address boxes, then click the Calculate button. Compare you and your friend's results in the Network field; if all the numbers are the same, you guys are on the same subnet.
If you don't know what the subnet mask and IP address should be, go to your router's settings and find the page that tells you what your ISP-assigned TCP/IP settings are; with my router, it's the first page you see when you log in.
Posted by: imconfused
im confused is this my WAN ip, routers ip, or the 3rd one. cuz i know of 3 ips related to my computer
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
You want the WAN IP address. For the subnet mask, you want your WAN subnet mask, not your LAN subnet mask (your router subnet mask).
Posted by: imconfused
i did the calculate thing and it said we are on different nodes. im not sure if this is right or not b/c our ISP said we were probably on the same node
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
What kind of router does your friend have? I'll look up where you can find where it tells you what your WAN subnet mask is. We need to know for sure if you and your friend are on the same subnet or not.
Posted by: imconfused
sorry he found it.. it said we are on different nodes. we have the same subnet mask, but entirely different ips. and it showed us on different nodes
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
Well, then forget everything I said in that long post of mine - like the scenario in the document, it only applies to people who are on the same subnet and whose ISP has created the same network structure as the one in the scenario. If you guys aren't on the same subnet but you're behind the same router (gateway), what should happen is that the computer trying to initiate communication sends an ARP request for the router's MAC address, and then the router sends an ARP request for the other computer's MAC address so that when the first computer sends a packet out on port 6112, the router forwards it to the other computer's IP address, on that other subnet. I find it unlikely that your ISP has made it so that the router will not forward traffic from one computer on one subnet to another, but I think it's possible. At this point, I think it's a firewall or network structure issue.
I really don't know what else to tell you besides getting a third party to host games for you. If you find a solution to the problem, PLEASE post back, I'd be very interested in hearing it.
Posted by: imconfused
thank you for putting your time into my problem. i will continue to try to figure it out. ill post back if i solve it for sure.
thanks again!
Posted by: imconfused
i just dont know what to do  i think im going to try to get my friend to connect his computer directly to his modem and see if he can host that way. unfortunately, a direct connection for me is impossible. btw, where do you get your resources (web site wise) for related computer trouble shooting?
also, what do u mean: we are behind the same router (gateway)?
Posted by: imconfused
negotiator: i have some questions of you that might help me solve the problem.
1. are ARP requests only for LAN or also for WAN?
2. is there anyway for me to see a list of my ARP requests to see if i am sending them to my friend and to see if they are working
3. is there any way to enable/disable ARP requests for certain IPs
4. what is PPPoE?
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
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i think im going to try to get my friend to connect his computer directly to his modem and see if he can host that way
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I thought your friend was able to host behind his router this whole time...
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btw, where do you get your resources (web site wise) for related computer trouble shooting?
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My brain, and www.google.com
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what do u mean: we are behind the same router (gateway)?
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According to what you said, one of your ISP's techs told you that you guys were behind the same gateway, which means that you connect through the same router to connect to the Internet.
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are ARP requests only for LAN or also for WAN?
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They're for both; for example, when your computer want to communicate with your friend's computer, your computer makes an ARP request for the MAC address of one of the gateway's interfaces and then the router makes a request for your friend's computer's MAC address. By doing this, your computer knows what the gateway's IP address is, and the gateway knows what your friend's computer's IP address is. The router then forwards packets from your computer to your friend's computer and vice versa.
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is there anyway for me to see a list of my ARP requests to see if i am sending them to my friend and to see if they are working
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To see the contents of your ARP cache, type this at the command prompt:
arp -a
It will show you the IP addresses and MAC addresses of any computers/routers on your subnet that you have established communication with. If you're connected to your router, you're only going to see an entry for your router, and entries for any other computers connected to your router that you've communicated with. Your router maintains a separate ARP cache, and it will contain the IP address and MAC address of your gateway, as well as the addresses of any computers on your WAN subnet that you may have communicated with.
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is there any way to enable/disable ARP requests for certain IPs
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I don't know.
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PPPoE stands for Point to Point Protocol over Ethernet, and it's what some DSL providers have their subscribers use to connect to their service. If you use it, it has nothing to do with your problem.
Posted by: imconfused
i still havent fixed it lol, and it really sucks. i was just wondering how i could try to bypass my firewall besides plugging in directly to the modem. i tried hosting on my other computer that is hardwired the modem, and it didnt work either.
Posted by: imconfused
lol im back 2 months later and i still have the same problem.. wondering if you know anything new negotiator.. once again my other computer cant host either and that is directly plugged into modem.. u sure NAV doesnt affect wc3?
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
Hi imconfused,
In my absence, I have discovered one definite cause of the problem you and your friend are experiencing - both players are behind a NAT router on the ISP's end. I don't feel like reading through the whole thread again to see if I mentioned that possibility before, but I now know that if both players are "NATed" by the ISP, this problem WILL occur. If both of you go to your routers' settings, check the IP address that has been assigned to the router's external interface and it falls in one of these ranges...
10.0.0.0 through 10.255.255.255
172.16.0.0 through 172.31.255.255
192.168.0.0 through 192.168.255.255
...there's the problem.
NAT isn't limited to non-routable IP addresses, though. If Battle.net tries to get a connection going between you two and it sees that you guys have the same IP address, that's another problem. In either case, if what I described is the case, the only solution is for one of you to get another ISP.
Posted by: imconfused
hey negotiator.. well..
in my absence, my parents decided to switch ISP because our old ISP was giving us off and on internet connection :S .. anyway.. im on DSL, and my friend has remained on cable, and now we can play!!
i guess it must have been what you described above...
anyway.. just wanted to post back to tell you how it was solved.. (sorry to bring back such an old topic)
thanks for all of your help
Posted by: NegotiatorSmith
You're welcome, and thanks for posting back, this is a tricky problem that not many people have reported back to me on.
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