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Stealing wireless
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Posted by: elhior_manwe
So using someone elses wireless connection in your home, not "wardriving" or hacking their WEP. Would like to know what some of your thoughts are and if you have ever heard of criminal or civil liability in a case like this. Currently, I just moved, I am connected to a open signal but get hooked up tomorrow. I think I will try to figure out where the signal is coming from and offer to encrypt it, sort of a thank you for letting me use it. But as for using it I feel it is perfectly ok because he is sending it open into my house.
discuss pls
Posted by: kestrel1
I have never heard of anyone taking any action with something like this, but you never know.
If they are fool enough to leave themselves open, I dought they would have a leg to stand on.
If you know the IP address of one of the machines on their network you could use 'net send' to send them a message telling them to encrypt the network.
I would suggest that you don't continue using thir connection though.
Posted by: elhior_manwe
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Originally Posted by kestrel1
I would suggest that you don't continue using thir connection though.
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Why?
I am getting my own connection tomorrow so I will not use their connection anymore. My reasons would be his connection doesnt have enough bandwidth, it is not secure, or reliable. But are there any other reasons why you wouldnt use a anonymous open connection? The only person doing anything wrong here that I can see, I could be wrong and that is pretty much what I am asking, is the person sending the signal because he is probably breaking his ToS. But I have heard of Isps calling this theft of service, but I dont think they have a case, and comparing it to splicing cable off a powerline.
Posted by: redwench
it is technically hacking if you dont have permission to use it. just because they left the keys in the ignition doesnt mean you can drive it. there are, of course, some places that allow the general public to use their connection. its quite possible you found one of them.
Posted by: TheeMon
yes, my mcdonalds (in the next town up, pop like 5000ish) has a wireless connection like this, i dont know how far it entends though, prolly like 1000feet or something...
honostly if i were u id figure out whos it is and tell them, just dont mention you used it...
Posted by: Bishop
Thank god for blokes who don't properly secure their wireless networks. I maintained my sanity during my incarceration in arizona by jacking into eightof the twelve networks in range of my apartment that were broadcasting wireless.
Posted by: kristianway
I would imagine that this falls under the same guide lines as the satellite court case.
If it is open and unprotected, i promise not to use it if you promise to stop it from entering my home. I mean if you com into my home without permission and put food in my kitchen that u paid for ... sorry if there is a lack of a prearranged understanding then 2 things will happen....i'll say thanks then i will eat it. the rules are the same if you pass your net connection through my kitchen.
Now i am not usually goring to go through the 10 or 12 minutes it takes me to crack the 128 encription (unless u r a turkey) and i certainly donot poke around inside my neighbor's PC. Light net surfing... u friggen bet.
Posted by: PsychoMonkey
I work for an ISP that provides wifi service and using the service unathorized by the person paying for the service is illegal as well as a violation of privacy. I can't vouch for all ISP's, but mine doesn't require the wireless connection to be encrypted. We leave that to customer preference. In the case of your situation, the person you were connecting to can't really help that fact that his wireless connection reaches your location. Its just the nature of wireless. If you have a wireless adapter, you are able to pick up any networks in the vicinity.
Posted by: kestrel1
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Originally Posted by redwench
it is technically hacking if you dont have permission to use it. just because they left the keys in the ignition doesnt mean you can drive it. there are, of course, some places that allow the general public to use their connection. its quite possible you found one of them.
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I totally agree with Redwench on this one.
If you came across a car with the door open & the engine running, would you get in & drive it down the road. I don't think so.
I know it is tempting to use someone elses wireless connection, but as many of the others have said & I said originally, it is probably illegal & could be classed as a breach of privacy.
I have a wireless network that I could access if I wanted too, but I feel that I would be invading someones privacy & I wouldn't like it if someone walked into my home & sat down to watch my TV.
DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: merlin0758
If you leave your connection open it's nobody's fault but yours.if the person with the open connection didn't want you to use it then it would be encrypted with there own custom password--believe me mines encrypted..and if it was illegal then when you get the hardware for this set-up it would have an encrypted key on it already for only your household or company to use..then after that if anyone still gets linked to your encrypted connection then it would be illegal..no you wouldn't get into a car with the keys left in it,,but I bet I would move the car if it parked in my driveway and the keys were in it... you're not envading privacy if they walked up in your house--(it's your house-if connections not to be used-then get it out of my house ).but then again i'm really speaking of cable internet with a wireless router ..but I did find this on wifi connections....." Wi-Fi uses a wireless frequency that is available without a license from the FCC, similar to your cordless telephone signal. Wi-Fi approved devices and base stations are designed to comply with standards to allow for mass market adoption of the service. ---- I also found this..(" Access Vs. Permission
With the law unclear, using another person's open wireless Internet connection without his knowledge becomes a question of ethics.")---this clearly shows theres not really a law against it..and the case was closed for now.but I belive this law sort of changes from state to state..((((((By default, most wireless routers assign a generic name to their networks. Routers made by Linksys, for instance, create a network called "Linksys." This quickly becomes a problem in areas where WI-FI is popular, because a person's computer may detect four or five different networks with identical names. In that situation, no easy method exists to determine which network is the right one.)))))
if you can set-up a password encryption on wifi then my rule still stands..wireless can mean trouble--please read the manual and protect yourself ....
Posted by: PsychoMonkey
I would agree that it comes down to ethics on this one. To use the car question, no, i wouldn't take someones care if they left the door open and the keys in it, unless it were interfering with something on my property. On the other hand, its really impossible to control wireless connection encroaching on someone elses property. So I guess for security sake, its best to keep your network encrypted, but if you find a network that isn't, it doesn't give a person free reign to automatically connect to it just because it isn't secure.
Posted by: miha
Ok here's a good one not exactly on topic but anyway.
When I started my companey(3 years ago) I moved into some office space where quite a lot of companies reside. So we set up our one network(wired & wireless) and one evening I decidet to climbe up onto the roof and setup the directional antenna. I had my latpot with me and by accident got connected to a diferent wifi than ours. So I scanned the area again and found about 7 or 8 open networks. Since I lived not far away and I usually walked to the office it took me only three days to figure out what companies had an open wireless(the companey name and ssid were the same or similar). So I decided to drop by these companies and that's what I did. I told them that their networks were exposed and that this may be a security risk and that I represent I companey specilasing in network technology. All of the six copmanies I contacted are still some of my very good clients and have never had any more problems with their wifi con. I guess that protecting the networks pissed off some people becouse one of the companies even got a very angry note on the door that it's not nice of them to take away the free internet con. and if they don't want to give out free internet the people who were using the con. will have to use a nother open network.
Anyway funny story.
Best reguards
Posted by: HotDudeNick
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I would imagine that this falls under the same guide lines as the satellite court case.
If it is open and unprotected, i promise not to use it if you promise to stop it from entering my home. I mean if you com into my home without permission and put food in my kitchen that u paid for ... sorry if there is a lack of a prearranged understanding then 2 things will happen....i'll say thanks then i will eat it. the rules are the same if you pass your net connection through my kitchen.
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I agree with this , if its on ur property than you have all rights to do with it as you please.
Posted by: PsychoMonkey
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Originally Posted by HotDudeNick
I agree with this , if its on ur property than you have all rights to do with it as you please.
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I guess my next questions is this.
If a person leaves their front door unlocked, does that automatically give you the right to go in their house?
Posted by: kestrel1
I think this thread could go round & round in circles.
Everyone has their own opinion on this subject, some agree that you shouldn't be using someone elses wireless network & others think it is OK.
Unless someone is taken to court over this sort of thing & is found guilty, I think it is all a case of ethics.
Posted by: flightdude
i find it interesting that you named you topic"stealing wireless'..its as if you already know what you are doing.stealing is stealing any way you look at it. someone else is paying for it and you are using it. the only was to justify what you are doing is to contact the person and and offer a few bucks for the use of the connection.
Posted by: XxGodxX
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If a person leaves their front door unlocked, does that automatically give you the right to go in their house?
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my answer to this question would have to be no but if they leave there car parked in my drive way and its running ill by all rights drive it , it is on his property so he can do as he pleases with it , this is just my opinion , if a person leaves there connection encrypted than it wont be on my property therefore i wont use it, my connection is wireless and i dont have it encrypted , if my neighbor was to use it i would not get mad at all , i have 3 computers in my house hooked to my wireless connection and 3 xbox lives , i do not mind somon else using my connection as long as they was to confess
(p.s. this is hotdudenick on a different account)
Posted by: PsychoMonkey
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Originally Posted by XxGodxX
my answer to this question would have to be no but if they leave there car parked in my drive way and its running ill by all rights drive it
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If a car was running on your property, I would say move it, or have a tow truck move it, but I wouldn't say that gives you the right to go on a joy ride with it.
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Originally Posted by XxGodxX
if a person leaves there connection encrypted than it wont be on my property therefore i wont use it
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Yes it would. Just because a connection is encrypted, doesn't mean the signal won't encroach on your property. Just just won't be able to connect to it without authorization
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Originally Posted by XxGodxX
my connection is wireless and i dont have it encrypted , if my neighbor was to use it i would not get mad at all
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If that's the way you feel, that's fine. But others may not necessarily feel safe or comfortable with one of their neighbors or a total stranger having access to their connection which could also jeopardize the security of their home networks.
As with anything, I think if you find something that doesn't belong to you, ethics says you should notify the person it does belong to. Now if you tell your neighbor and that person doesn't mind you using it, then that's great. Problem solved.
Posted by: lcousins
I say use it as much as posible, in fact download big slow things using the connection. If they dont even notice then they clearly don't use it enough to care, if they do use it then they will hopefully rin up their isp to complain who unless they are totally crap will tel them how to secure their wireless. See its acually a public service in a way...
Posted by: kestrel1
How long will this debate go on? For ever or what.
Posted by: demon_horse
I think if someone's leaving their network unsecured thats their problem if others start using it. Ignorance is not an excuse.
Mine appears unsecured but actually has MAC Address Filtering switched on as I find this easier to use than WEP. I also have 2 housemates willingly paying £5 a month each toward my bill for unlimited use. I also detect at least 2 other unsecured and 2 secured networks in the area, all at a decent strength so fairly close (I don't know what WIFI ranges are like). I would only use the others in an emergency, but I doubt all people are the same.
Posted by: johninc
I just say if they leave it open its there own fault. I leave mine open to share with everyone, my neighbors don't.
And I'm still waiting for the cable company to come knockin'
Posted by: halfcat
I think comparing internat use, to a car or house is a little outrageous. It's not like putting a simple WEP encryption is so hard, in fact, the only way i could set up my wireless was to go to a site that clearly says your protecting your connection. There is a differance between hitch hiking and grand theft auto.... o ya. i suport "borowing" as much internet as you can. stick it to the man!!!111
Posted by: redwench
hitchhiking is done with the consent of the car owner. and why would you call it "borowing" if you cant return it, and dont have their permission in the first place?
Posted by: matt.modica
I think as long as they left it open you can assume they're sharing it with you, but if its encrypted (WEP or WPA) and you hack it, thats crossing the line. Just don't accedentally get a virus or trojan on someone elses computer, then you might get in trouble.
Posted by: kestrel1
Can we close this one now. It is getting very samey & boring.
Posted by: redwench
so dont read it 
Posted by: XxGodxX
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I think comparing internat use, to a car or house is a little outrageous. It's not like putting a simple WEP encryption is so hard, in fact, the only way i could set up my wireless was to go to a site that clearly says your protecting your connection. There is a differance between hitch hiking and grand theft auto.... o ya. i suport "borowing" as much internet as you can. stick it to the man!
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You cannot compare a car with a internet connection because car don't go flowing through the air into your house most of the time , and if they did id keep them.
Posted by: PsychoMonkey
I really find it sad the audacity of some of these statements. That just because something is "there" means that you have a right to it. And just because someone doesn't have their wireless secure, doesn't mean they "meant" for others to use it. Most people may even be unaware of the fact that their wireless router has any security mesures seeing as how the router comes without encryption right out of the box. I think as members of the tech community, it would be a responsibility to inform those who aren't tech savy of the dangers of leaving a network unsecure. If they don't care, then by all means, have a good time browsing as someone elses expense. But at least have the decency to inform them and let the actual "owner" of the service make that decision
Posted by: kestrel1
Aaahhhh.
Posted by: wbrault
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Originally Posted by PsychoMonkey
I really find it sad the audacity of some of these statements. That just because something is "there" means that you have a right to it. And just because someone doesn't have their wireless secure, doesn't mean they "meant" for others to use it. Most people may even be unaware of the fact that their wireless router has any security mesures seeing as how the router comes without encryption right out of the box. I think as members of the tech community, it would be a responsibility to inform those who aren't tech savy of the dangers of leaving a network unsecure. If they don't care, then by all means, have a good time browsing as someone elses expense. But at least have the decency to inform them and let the actual "owner" of the service make that decision
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I agree
Posted by: Logical_1
Look, this is how it is, rather you like it or not and rather you think you have the right to it or not. Using someone else's connection without their consent is theft of service plain and simple. No law enforcement agency out there cares if it's on your property or not. This hearkens back to the days of satellite TV piracy and is much the same argument except with a new technology. It's illegal and that's all there is to it.
Read here: http://news.com.com/FAQ+Wi-Fi+mooch...tml?tag=nl.caro
Posted by: lcousins
not a single person in the thread has claimed that it is not illegal to do so. they are merely having a discussion on the morality of it. just because something is illegal doesn't mean you cannot have an opinion of it.
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Look, this is how it is, rather you like it or not and rather you think you have the right to it or not. Using someone else's connection without their consent is theft of service plain and simple.
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Posted by: redwench
actually, several people have claimed its perfectly legal.
Posted by: lcousins
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Originally Posted by redwench
actually, several people have claimed its perfectly legal.
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Well I guess Merlin went nearest by arguing
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I also found this..(" Access Vs. Permission
With the law unclear, using another person's open wireless Internet connection without his knowledge becomes a question of ethics.")---this clearly shows theres not really a law against it
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but surely that isnt a statement of belief that it is perfectly illegal, just an attempt to interpret past legislation in a way which may show that it is not illegal.
I hope I'm just being an idiot and have missed these declarations of perfectly legal, right now though all I can see in misinterpretion and confusion, specifically the failure to seperate opinion from law.
Posted by: redwench
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Originally Posted by merlin0758
if it was illegal then when you get the hardware for this set-up it would have an encrypted key on it already for only your household or company to use.
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the arguement of some people seems to center around whether the signal is encrypted, although i fail to see what difference that would make legally. i do believe there are a few other posts along that line, but im too lazy to wade
Posted by: kestrel1
As with all things, it is illegal, but you will only be prosecuted if & when you are caught.
If this is an individuals wireless network, then it is unlikely they will prosecute. A corporate company with a wireless network, probably wouldn't be so stupid as to leave the network open, but if they did & you started using it, I would think they would do something about it.
Your best bet is never try to connect to someone elses network, open or not, you are just asking for trouble.
Posted by: elhior_manwe
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Originally Posted by PsychoMonkey
I really find it sad the audacity of some of these statements. That just because something is "there" means that you have a right to it. And just because someone doesn't have their wireless secure, doesn't mean they "meant" for others to use it. Most people may even be unaware of the fact that their wireless router has any security mesures seeing as how the router comes without encryption right out of the box. I think as members of the tech community, it would be a responsibility to inform those who aren't tech savy of the dangers of leaving a network unsecure. If they don't care, then by all means, have a good time browsing as someone elses expense. But at least have the decency to inform them and let the actual "owner" of the service make that decision
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I really dont think it is audacious for people to say that using someone elses wireless is ok if you dont hack it. I really see no problem with it at all. You saying that people should have no clue about encryption just because it is not defaulted that way is silly as well, be responsible for youself please. Read the instructions and if you dont bother then you by default are sending it out to your neighbors.
Posted by: kestrel1
& it goes on.
Posted by: quicksandy
I think that if everyone respected anothers property, wether it be physically tangible, or data wave and not physically tangible, and only use their things with permission, we wouldn't have to have all that encryption and anti- anything. But, boys n girls, welcome to the reality show on air. Until some sort of reprocussions erupt in a backlash on the perpetrators, they will continue to use everything you own and call it ok.
quicksandy
make the best of all situations, because it beats the alternatives.
Posted by: rabidgecko
well I used to borrow my neighbours internet for about 2 weeks before mine got set up, but they figured out on their own that they should encrypt it. i dont get it though, i dont wanna encrypt my signal because I notice a significant performance decrease when I am farther away from my access point, but I just enabled MAC filtering and that seems to work fine for me. so I dont see why people who wanna keep their connection at high speed just enable MAC filtering. although for a big corporation with countless computers connected it may be a bit more difficult, but thats their choice then.
I think the best solution though would be, unless you are told by the owner, provider, w.e that the connection is free of charge, treat it like private property that shouldnt be "borrowed" or stolen
Posted by: kestrel1
I use MAC filtering at work for a set of laptops on a small wireless. This works fine & was a better solution than the usual WEP encryption.
Had problems with WEP & MAC filtering was the only way to get some to connect successfully.
Posted by: demon_horse
Yeah snap here about the MAC filtering... My flatmates asked me if they could use my connection, and as a bonus were willing to chip in on my bill. and believe me, if they can find the initiative to ask and offer, anyone can.
Posted by: pdnielsen
Ummmmm. I guess this is part of the reason I want to stick to a wired network? Besides the fact that my two computers are right next to each other anyway. I'd be more concerned about people hacking into my actual computer and stealing my credit card information, bank account numbers, etc. than about them stealing the use of my connection to the 'net. What's already been mentioned is that the law against it is very much like Title 17 ("copyright law" to you lay people.)
Posted by: matt.modica
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Originally Posted by XxGodxX
You cannot compare a car with a internet connection because car don't go flowing through the air into your house most of the time , and if they did id keep them.
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I agree, and in addition, some wireless networks are set up specificly for the public to use, like ones at libraries or coffie houses. The only way you can tell that someone doesn't want the public to use their network freely is if they encrypt it. Otherwise, you have to assume that the network is open for public use.
Posted by: euphi212
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/08/tec...nternet_piracy/
Here is a link that discusses this very issue.
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