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What a shame
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)
Posted by: trekpsycho
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2006156
Posted by: Bishop
I was going to just say "eh." but that's too short so I'll use this explanation and also:
big deal.
Posted by: Shalome
You know, if all those millions of currently-illegal immigrants want to become tax-paying members of society, I say more power to them.
That's the funny thing I hear about this whole debate. One side says "you can't have immigration reform because all those illegal immigrants use all our social services and don't pay taxes and are a huge drain on our society" but instead of making the immigrants pay taxes, they want to ship them back to Mexico.
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by Shalome
You know, if all those millions of currently-illegal immigrants want to become tax-paying members of society, I say more power to them.
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I don't think that the majority want to be American citizens, they just want to be able to get what they can out of America without having to worry about being shipped back to Mexico. Face it, is someone who already broke the law to get here going to obey another law requiring them to sign up for a "guest worker" program. I don't think so. Especially if it is going to cost them thousands of dollars they could otherwise ship back home.
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Originally Posted by Shalome
That's the funny thing I hear about this whole debate. One side says "you can't have immigration reform because all those illegal immigrants use all our social services and don't pay taxes and are a huge drain on our society" but instead of making the immigrants pay taxes, they want to ship them back to Mexico.
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Problem is, even if they are made citizens, they won't be paying taxes. The majority are uneducated and unskilled so they won't make enough money to pay taxes on. In fact, a vast majority will probably qualify for earned income deductions which means they will actually get back more than they pay in.
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by Bishop
I was going to just say "eh." but that's too short so I'll use this explanation and also:
big deal.
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Yeah it is a big deal.
Posted by: Bishop
No, it's really not.
Posted by: Shalome
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Originally Posted by trekpsycho
I don't think that the majority want to be American citizens, they just want to be able to get what they can out of America without having to worry about being shipped back to Mexico. Face it, is someone who already broke the law to get here going to obey another law requiring them to sign up for a "guest worker" program. I don't think so. Especially if it is going to cost them thousands of dollars they could otherwise ship back home.
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I'm sorry, were you in Los Angeles when the city shut down so a million people could stand in the streets to yell "I want to be an American, please let me have citizenship!"?
I was.
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Problem is, even if they are made citizens, they won't be paying taxes. The majority are uneducated and unskilled so they won't make enough money to pay taxes on. In fact, a vast majority will probably qualify for earned income deductions which means they will actually get back more than they pay in.
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Define "unskilled." Here in Los Angeles, illegal labor landscapes yards, cares for children, and does construction work. That's not the same kinds of skill as, say, an IT professional, but it's still skills.
When I was a waitress, which is a pretty "unskilled" job, my biggest tax refund was a whopping $280. *shrug*
If you're worried about where your tax dollars are going, check the Pentagon's budget for already-obsolete planes and equipment, and the discretionary spending budgets, as well as those multimillion dollar pork projects like the multimillion dollar bridge in Alaska for an island with 30 residents, or the $300,000 given to Blue Springs, MO, to "combat goth culture." Hell, check your *state* spending sometime.
Social services are a drop in the bucket compared to all the total crap the government spends money on. Immigrants are a convienent target, though. "Just ship 'em back! They's foreign! They'll take our jobs and not pay any taxes and use up all our social services!!!"
Posted by: AltronHGX
Obviously the biggest problem with your argument, Shal, is you're not generalizing enough 
This is a thread about immigrants infringing on our American soil! I'm going with what my gut tells me on this one. Not facts or reason. Illegal immigrants are bad for the country. They should have come to America the same way the rest of us Americans did. We were born here. Why can't they do the same thing?
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by Shalome
I'm sorry, were you in Los Angeles when the city shut down so a million people could stand in the streets to yell "I want to be an American, please let me have citizenship!"?
I was.
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No, but I saw pleanty of protests on TV where the protestors waved Mexican flags and shouted "Viva la Mexico". Doesn't sound to me like they want to be citizens of the US. Oh, and a miilion is not a majority of 11-20 milliion. That is a minority. Let me also say that it angers me that people think that it is ok for illegal immigrants to protest wanting their rights. They have none. They are illegal .
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by Shalome
Define "unskilled." Here in Los Angeles, illegal labor landscapes yards, cares for children, and does construction work. That's not the same kinds of skill as, say, an IT professional, but it's still skills.
When I was a waitress, which is a pretty "unskilled" job, my biggest tax refund was a whopping $280. *shrug*
If you're worried about where your tax dollars are going, check the Pentagon's budget for already-obsolete planes and equipment, and the discretionary spending budgets, as well as those multimillion dollar pork projects like the multimillion dollar bridge in Alaska for an island with 30 residents, or the $300,000 given to Blue Springs, MO, to "combat goth culture." Hell, check your *state* spending sometime.
Social services are a drop in the bucket compared to all the total crap the government spends money on. Immigrants are a convienent target, though. "Just ship 'em back! They's foreign! They'll take our jobs and not pay any taxes and use up all our social services!!!"
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Unskilled-not having or showing or requiring special skill or proficiency;
When you were a waitress, how many dependents did you have? Let me assure you, if your refund was only $280 and you had any dependents other than yourself, you should have fired you tax preparer. Some one with a low paying job (making less than:
$35,263 ($37,263 married filing jointly) with two or more qualifying children;
$31,030 ($33,030 married filing jointly) with one qualifying child;
$11,750 ($13,750 married filing jointly) with no qualifying children.
can qualify for earned income credit, which can allow you to get a much larger refund back than the total of the taxes that were removed from you check.
BTW, I do worry about those other expenditures that you mentioned, but this topic is on illegal immigration, not pork barrel spending. Either way, though, I don't see how that makes it irrelevant that my tax dollars are going to illegal immigrants or why it shouldn't upset me.
Thanks for you input, Shalome.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Arguing with Shal.
Not a high percentage play.
That's what the forum is for though, I guess.
Posted by: Bishop
If you carefully scrutinized exactly where your tax dollars were going, you'd discover quite a seperate series of conclusions, as opposed to a blanket statement influenced by a personal opinion on a subject that doesn't really have anything to do with you.
You want some things to actually worry about? How about the gross manipulation of history and the people to inherit value into things of essential uselessness as a means of global economic control?
That's a pretty serious situation.
How about the almost casual erosion of personal privacy and freedom under the pretense of security?
Ever occur to you that the reason the powers that be are making such a fuss over the situation is that there are now millions of people in the country that, for all intents and purposes, do not exist? And, for a double whammy, these ghostfolk are gradually undermining the societial infastructure to the point where, with time, the people who ultimately provide one or more links in the necessary chain are unknown and invisible?
Is it any wonder why they want to tag them all and induct them into society? Easier to keep track of that way.
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by Bishop
If you carefully scrutinized exactly where your tax dollars were going, you'd discover quite a seperate series of conclusions, as opposed to a blanket statement influenced by a personal opinion on a subject that doesn't really have anything to do with you.
You want some things to actually worry about? How about the gross manipulation of history and the people to inherit value into things of essential uselessness as a means of global economic control?
That's a pretty serious situation.
How about the almost casual erosion of personal privacy and freedom under the pretense of security?
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You have no idea whether or not I "closely scrutinze where my tax dollars are going". As a matter of fact, I do. And I am concerned about every instance in which my money is wasted. But how does that invalidate my objections to having any tax money spent on people who are not citizens?
Some light reading for you:
http://www.stanfordreview.org/Archi...opinions4.shtml http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124995,00.html
http://www.washingtontimes.com/nati...02115-6766r.htm
Increased health care costs:
http://www.couplescompany.com/featu...s/IllHealth.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05...lth.illegal.ap/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124995,00.html
How do you come to the conclusion that this issue has nothing to do with me? I am an American citizen, I vote and I pay taxes. I think that gives me the right to be concerned about everything that goes on in this country and in its government.
I am also concerned about the erosion of personal privacy. I write to my representatives in Congress about these things. Again, how does that affect this issue?
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Ever occur to you that the reason the powers that be are making such a fuss over the situation is that there are now millions of people in the country that, for all intents and purposes, do not exist? And, for a double whammy, these ghostfolk are gradually undermining the societial infastructure to the point where, with time, the people who ultimately provide one or more links in the necessary chain are unknown and invisible?
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If I understand what you're saying here, you think that the reason Congress wants to make these people citizens is so that they can keep track of them? Ever occure to you that a much simpler answer to why the powers that be are making such a fuss is because ordinary people are concerned about this? As shown here: I talk to people everyday who are concerned about this issue, not because these people are "ghosts" and can't be kept track of, but because they are here illegally and have no right to be here.
They have broken the law. Plain and simple. Not just the immigration law, but also evading taxes and stealing identities. Do you think any citizen of American could work for years without paying taxes and not get hit with prison time? And now the Senate wants to give them amnesty for this and let them become citizens!
I'll leave you with this: What Mexicans think about the southwest US
Thank you
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by AltronHGX
Obviously the biggest problem with your argument, Shal, is you're not generalizing enough
This is a thread about immigrants infringing on our American soil! I'm going with what my gut tells me on this one. Not facts or reason. Illegal immigrants are bad for the country. They should have come to America the same way the rest of us Americans did. We were born here. Why can't they do the same thing? |
No, sorry. This thread is not about immigrants. It's about illegal immigrants . I have no problem with legal immigrants. In fact, more power to them. They have the determination to wade through the requirements to be citizens of the US! Believe me, that is no easy task. That's why I think that the Senate bill is a slap in the face to them. Here they are, having gone through the expensive and time consuming process to become citizens, and the Senate wants to just reward 11-20 million people who broke the law to get here with citizenship and all the benefits thereof. BTW, I am going with facts and reason, not my "gut". Illegal immigrants are bad for this country. Uncontrolled immigration is bad for this country. That's why we have immigration laws. The US cannot take in unlimited numbers of immigrants, no matter what some people think.
Thank you.
Posted by: Bishop
You fail to see the part where I don't care about whatever harebrained argument you want to make, and am just laughing in your face at the backwards absurdity of the arguments you present.
There's also the part where I am right and you are wrong.
Furthermore, if you think that there is anything you can possibly do to make any kind of difference whatsoever you are woefully and sorely mistaken.
This is not a country governed by its people, despite all charades to the contrary.
Posted by: elhior_manwe
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Originally Posted by Shalome
You know, if all those millions of currently-illegal immigrants want to become tax-paying members of society, I say more power to them.
That's the funny thing I hear about this whole debate. One side says "you can't have immigration reform because all those illegal immigrants use all our social services and don't pay taxes and are a huge drain on our society" but instead of making the immigrants pay taxes, they want to ship them back to Mexico.
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You dont think illegals pay taxes? Would be better to say they dont pay all their taxes. But in some cases they actually do. Let me explain I guess.
They pay sales tax unless the can find some kind of blackmarket walmart. Property tax either by actually owning a house or just paying it through rent. Gas taxes. And considering that some illegals use someone elses social security number to get a job they are even paying there social, unemployment, and income taxes. I am sure I missed some taxes that they pay.
I am not saying that the illegal aliens in this country is not a problem but it is certainly not a simple black and white issue.
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by Bishop
You fail to see the part where I don't care about whatever harebrained argument you want to make, and am just laughing in your face at the backwards absurdity of the arguments you present.
There's also the part where I am right and you are wrong.
Furthermore, if you think that there is anything you can possibly do to make any kind of difference whatsoever you are woefully and sorely mistaken.
This is not a country governed by its people, despite all charades to the contrary.
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You're right, I failed to see that. Probably because you didn't explain your position well enough. If you don't care, why bother to post? And you can laugh in my face all you want, I really don't give a rat's ass what you think either. If you can't refute my arguments with some basis of fact, I won't waste my time with you any further after this post.
Yes I do believe that there is something I can do to make a difference and I do believe this country is still governed by the people, though not to the extent that it used to be. Therefore, unlike you, instead of just giving up, I will at least try.
Have a nice (if somewhat grim) life, bishop.
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by elhior_manwe
You dont think illegals pay taxes? Would be better to say they dont pay all their taxes. But in some cases they actually do. Let me explain I guess.
They pay sales tax unless the can find some kind of blackmarket walmart. Property tax either by actually owning a house or just paying it through rent. Gas taxes. And considering that some illegals use someone elses social security number to get a job they are even paying there social, unemployment, and income taxes. I am sure I missed some taxes that they pay.
I am not saying that the illegal aliens in this country is not a problem but it is certainly not a simple black and white issue.
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Of course they do! But what people fail to realize is that the amount they pay is outstripped by the amount that they cost, leaving a net loss to the country. The loss will be greater if they are given amnesty because the majority of them make very low wages and will pay very little if any income tax, while at the same time, they will be eligible for even more social services, such as food stamps and welfare, that they can't get now.
At least you realize that it is a problem. Some people think that it is a trivial thing, hardly worth the time to think about it. However, the argument could be made that it is a black and white issue. They broke the law, they pay the consequences. After all if you run a red light, you can't tell the judge "Well it's not a black and white issue" can you?
Thank you.
Posted by: Bishop
Truth, Fact, and Reality are three seperate things.
Posted by: Gunslinger
This thread delivers.
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by Gunslinger
This thread delivers.
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????????? Elucidate please.
Posted by: justinious
I believe he is referring to its entertainment value. I know I am enjoying the debate.
Posted by: Bishop
So, does anyone like pie?
Posted by: Gunslinger
Yes. I, for one, enjoy a good slice of pie.
Posted by: justinious
Pie is for chumps. Blackberry cobbler is ten times better.
Posted by: Bishop
There are those who would argue that cobbler is merely an alternate form of pie.
Posted by: Gunslinger
I also enjoy a good spot of cobbler.
Pie > Cobbler, however.
Any who disagree are sadly misinformed. I would inundate you with statistics to prove such an assertion, but I'm lazy and the internet is scary.
Posted by: justinious
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Originally Posted by Bishop
There are those who would argue that cobbler is merely an alternate form of pie.
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They would be dead wrong according to this official (and eye-appealing) website.
http://www.baking911.com/pies_tarts/101_intro.htm
to quote:
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COBBLERS, TARTS & PIES: A cobbler is a fruit dessert baked in a deep dish or baking dish that has a topping sprinkled on before baking. A tart is made with a crust formed in a tart pan or a low, straight-walled pan with a removable bottom. A pie, similar to a tart, is baked in a pie pan that has sloping sides. Both a tart and a pie can have the crust prebaked and filled or baked with fruits, custards or chocolate.
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So clearly a cobbler, which only uses fruit and is baked deep-dish, is related to, yet distinct from, pie.
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Originally Posted by Gunslinger
I also enjoy a good spot of cobbler.
Pie > Cobbler, however.
Any who disagree are sadly misinformed. I would inundate you with statistics to prove such an assertion, but I'm lazy and the internet is scary.
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Then you lose.
Thank you.
Posted by: Bishop
Remember kids: The people "in the know" are only expressing their own opinions on the subject.
Pie, Cobbler, and Tarts are all one and the same, and never let any poorly designed website tell you otherwise.
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by justinious
I believe he is referring to its entertainment value. I know I am enjoying the debate.
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Yep. Gotta love a good debate. It's so hard to find someone to debate with these days though. Some people would rather ignore an issue than talk about it. Others would rather belittle someone than talk intelligently to them.
Oh, well. One can always hope for intelligent conversation, anyway.
Posted by: Bishop
You can talk about it all you want and you won't get anything done.
Posted by: Gunslinger
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Originally Posted by trekpsycho
Yep. Gotta love a good debate. It's so hard to find someone to debate with these days though. Some people would rather ignore an issue than talk about it. Others would rather belittle someone than talk intelligently to them.
Oh, well. One can always hope for intelligent conversation, anyway. |
What does any of that have to do with pie?
Posted by: marioze53
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What does any of that have to do with pie?
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I believe the question that Trekpsycho will eventually get to (please correct me if I am wrong Trek  ) is do illegal immigrants like pie?
Posted by: redwench
everyone likes pie.
Posted by: Bishop
God doesn't like pie.
Posted by: redwench
i do so.
Posted by: Bishop
http://www.darkintellect.com/00FF00/junk/buttsecks.jpg
Posted by: justinious
http://orlyowl.com/wtf.jpg
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by redwench
i do so.
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I KNEW IT!!!!!!
Posted by: trekpsycho
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Originally Posted by marioze53
I believe the question that Trekpsycho will eventually get to (please correct me if I am wrong Trek ) is do illegal immigrants like pie? |
Yep, you're wrong. It's a shame when you can't even start an argument anymore. *tsk*
Posted by: Bishop
you know what they say about arguing over the internet.
Posted by: Gunslinger
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index....b9a680/463c5922
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