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Baffling problem
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Posted by: Mr. Nip
Hi. My computer has presented me with a problem I can't solve, so as per usual when that happens I'm trusting in the good will of all the people of the internet to help me out. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
I just had my computer shipped to me from across the country. It's visibly in good condition, but it doesn't work. Allow me to be more descriptive.
It powers on as soon as it's plugged in, without me having to actually press the power button. It doesn't turn off with a press from the power button either - I have to hold it for 4 seconds (a documented feature of my motherboard) and *then* it shuts off. After this, for a few minutes it will no longer turn on spontaneously upon applying power, until some unspecified amount of time passes, at which time it starts this behaviour again.
Upon starting, it doesn't do much of anything. There's the normal whirr of fans starting, the hard drive clicks, but there is no beep. It then just sits there until I turn it off.
I consider my knowledge of computer hardware 'moderate', in that I can open it up with no fear, jiggle things around a bit, but not actually find a solution to the problem. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> My more knowledgable friends suggest a motherboard problem, ie. it's dead. That's bad news for me, since I don't have easy access to computer repair services.
I've checked connections for pretty much everything, thinking something may have become dislodged during shipping. Everything looks fine. I've checked and rechecked the essential components - cpu, ram, video card. They all seem to be in firmly, unless I'm missing something about the cpu, seeing as I've never actually removed one.
Anyway, there you go. I would really really really appreciate any help you could give me, or even pointers to *other* people who could help. Thanks.
Posted by: Arta
The bad news:
I agree with your friend <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0">
The good news:
There are other ppl here who know an awful lot more about hardware than me! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
Posted by: JANNA
i wouldnt mess with it anymore. call the place u got it from tell em it doesnt work and u want ur money back. the only way i would buy a computer by mail order is from Dell. it sounds like one of two things they used bad parts or it was damaged in shipment.
in either case i would return it if it is possible
Posted by: Mr. Nip
Oops, I should have clarified that I've had this computer for a while. I shipped it from my old home to my new home, not from the manufacturer. I don't think I'm going to be able to get help from the people I bought it from - it was custom assembled by a small, reliable store in my home town. I've appealed to them for help, but they're kind of slow in responding.
Anyway, gotta go. Thanks for the quick replies.
Posted by: JANNA
k take out all the cards and replace them back into the motherboard then remove the ram and put it back in. then one by one disconnect all the cables and put em back on the individual drives and slots on the motherboard. make sure the cpu is firmly in place if it is slot1 or slotA. failing all that i would look to trying a different case or PS or switch on the case front but my guess is the computer was damaged in shipment. if it was shipped via UPS or FedEx u may have some luck claiming damages but i wouldnt bet on that. however please repost with all ur system specs including case style AT or ATX MB CPU ram HD type and size etc.
Posted by: Mr. Nip
Oh, I knew I forgot something... system specs, right. Those are kind of handy. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
ATX case
MB: ASUS P2B-F
CPU: Pentium III 450
256 mb ram (pc100 I believe)
HD: can't remember at the moment, 16 gb
I'll look that stuff up more thoroughly and post it later.
Posted by: JANNA
ill make a guess it is either dying PS dead HD or a bad case switch. course this is a diagnosis made purely over the internet so take it for what it is worth. and all this is hinged upon u having pulled and reseated all connections and cables. its extremely difficult to determine a root cause for this kind of problem without seeing the comp but those are where i think u should start looking first
Posted by: Null Actor
If you don't see anything on your monitor, then it might be a dead video card. If your hard drive begins activity, like it's loading the OS, then it probably is the video card.
But if your harddrive never starts activity, I'd rule it down to a dead motherboard or CPU. Either one can cause that behavior. I wouldn't say it's the power supply or switch, especially if everything in the machine is turning on.
Posted by: Mr. Nip
Good news - I might have found the problem. It doesn't look like my CPU is seated correctly. Some parts of the little clamp thing that holds the cpu in are bent at frightening angles. I'll tackle that after I get my RAM back in. Hm, it wasn't this hard taking it out...
Posted by: Mr. Nip
Hm, I don't know now whether the cpu isn't in properly or the bracket is just bent for some reason. Can anyone tell me how to remove a slot 1 processor?
Posted by: JANNA
just bend the end clamps out if u can sometimes there are little clips on the sides. typically i do that and just yank sometimes it takes a little effort since those things can get seated in there pretty good. just dont break the motherboard or rip the slot out it doesnt take THAT much effort 
Posted by: Mr. Nip
Thanks! I finally got it out, and put it back in. It still doesn't work though. <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0"> I might not have it in all the way though, since the brackets aren't really snapping into place around the cpu. Probably another case of 'I don't push hard enough because I don't want to break it.'
Right now I'm working on removing the CMOS battery and/or finding the CMOS clear jumper. Anyone know where this jumper might be found on the P2B-F? I looked in the manual but it doesn't seem to say. Any help would be great...
Posted by: JANNA
actually u can try and remove the clips that hold the CPU in place and get a set of new ones ive found that multiple removings of slot style CPU tend to wear those things out fast. they werent really meant to be removed once the CPU was in place. i run my P3 sans clips; but then i dont have a huge fan/heatsink on the the thing either.
the cmos battery should have a little silver clip that u can push with the end of a writing pen and the battery will pop up and allow y to remove it wait at least 10 seconds before u replace it to make sure the CMOS is cleared
Posted by: Mr. Nip
Crud - I'm sure I pulled that cpu in and out a few times yesterday trying to figure out how it fit. Oh well, my computer can't exactly get any more broken.
I found the clip for the cmos battery. I'll try removing it when I get home today. Also, I discovered the 'jumper' (two soldering points) to reset the cmos, so I'll try that too. I don't have much hope for that solution though, and I'm running out of options...
Posted by: JANNA
the last time i had that happen was when i was running a K6-3 system and decided that it was just too much effort to get the thing to run right and upgraded the entire thing heh could be a good excuse to go with a new CPU HD MB and ram
Posted by: Mr. Nip
The last time you had what happen? My problem, or a failed cpu?
Posted by: JANNA
pretty much what ur experiencing sometimes u can use it as an excuse to get a better setup always look on the bright side of things
Posted by: KickingBird
I doub't it is the power switch. If he can hold the button in for the four second shutdown the SWITCH ITSELF is ok. Might be the hardware that controlls the power switch on the motherboard itself, but this is unlikely. What he needs to do first is listen for trouble beeps when he starts the system. (Make sure your system HAS a speaker in the case, as some newer ones or cheap cases dont.)
When he starts the system does it beep beep beep? Different combinations of beeps mean different things. Mainly though, when you get trouble beeps it's because:
1. the video card is not seated.
2. there is some kind of memory error.
Any other trouble beeps can be ignored as you have video and a screen to work from.(Usually)(I asume he got his cpu in ok by this point :P)
The thing to do is REMOVE everything from the motherboard except ram, cpu/heatsink and video card. Boot the system with NO drives of ANY kind. If you get a boot and system *****es because there is no system disk, shut down and add the floppy drive. reboot. If you get bios, and same ***** about no system disk, then so far so good.
Connect you hard drive as a MASTER or SINGLE only drive on the Primary IDE controller. REBOOT. Does system hang? Then it's bad hard drive or bad primary controller. Try the drive as a MASTER or SINGLE on secondary controller. Same problem? Likely to be the drive. Scare up an old hard drive or use your cd rom as a master WITHOUT the hard drive to see if system will boot through bios to ***** about no system disk.
Generally when a bad IDE component is connected, or if a ribbon cable on an IDE component is connected backwards,the result is what is happening to YOUR system. (sometimes no ram present will get you the same results, but usually you just get one real, long, pissed off sounding beep from the system> )
If with no drives connected your system does what it has been doing, then look at powersupply, or motherboard. If you FIND yourself looking at a new supply or board, then it is "no guilt upgrade time" as the good Janna suggests.
Fancy new case with racing stripes, 1.33 ghz axia t-bird 40 gig IBM hard drive..*drool*
*may the force be with you* hee hee
Posted by: Mr. Nip
That's the whole problem - no POST, no beeps. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> However, the IDE device idea is one I haven't heard yet. I'll be sure to try it out.
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
If your system worked fine before it was shipped, it could just be the power outlet you now have it plugged in.
Are you using an extension cord or somekind of hub where everything plugs in? You might try cutting down on the power consumption by turning the computer on first and then the monitor a few seconds later. If you're turning them on at the same time, that could be causing your blank screen if the voltage drop is too much.
Usually when you get the blank screen, holding the reset button in for a couple seconds should initiate bootup.
If I had to guess there's bad hardware involved, i'd say you need a new power supply or CMOS battery. But I can't make that diagnosis without being able to test it directly. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> I wouldn't think it would be the CMOS battery however unles you notice a lot of your settings rsetting to defaults after extended downtimes.
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
Oh yeah..ASUS boards usually power up that way when you plug them in for the first time. It should remember being plugged in however so it could be your battery "Forgetting" settings. Read up on your manual and disable the appropriate power settings in CMOS and see if that helps.
If you notice the settings change on their own, I'd bet on the battery.
Posted by: Mr. Nip
I appreciate the fresh advice. Aha, but you forget - I can't change my CMOS settings because I can't get into CMOS setup. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> When I say blank screen, I mean totally blank, as in the monitor displays no signal from the computer.
I thought it might be the quality of the power supply, but I tried fully three different outlets. I am using a power bar... I suppose that could be it, maybe. I'll try plugging the computer in directly. And hey, new ideas are always good. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
I doubt it's the power supply, because everything else works (fans, CD drive motor).
I'm going to get a new CMOS battery today (if they're not too expensive) and see if it helps. I'm not counting on it.
What baffles me most, and what you reminded me of, is the constant
remembering/forgetting that it's doing. Once I force it off by holding the power switch, it 'remembers' that it should stay off for a few minutes. Then later it 'forgets' and starts turning on as soon as it's plugged in again. Since the only real 'memory' a computer has when off is the CMOS, that leads me to think that the CMOS is not remembering properly - that its battery is dead. However, first of all I've heard that a dead CMOS battery only causes it to forget your default settings, which can easily be restored, not halt the booting of your computer completely. Secondly, the computer isn't that old - CMOS batteries should last much longer than 2 years, right? Also, I would think that *not* turning on upon application of power would be the default setting that the CMOS would revert to upon 'forgetting', not the other way around. And finally, when I removed the battery for an hour it reverted to its state of *remembering* how to work properly - ie. it didn't turn on when plugged in. Then, as per normal, it 'forgot' again after a few minutes.
This is all guesswork that I'm doing in my head, and doesn't really apply to the probhlem at hand, but it still doesn't make sense... does anyone have an explanation that is both logical and could perhaps lead to the source of the problem?
Posted by: Mr. Nip
I can rule out bad battery now. Just purchased a brand new one and it did nothing. I might just take the thing in to a repair shop - it's beginning to not be worth my time to do this myself.
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
Really the only way to know or sure is to test the hardware. You might try running the computer with the bare minimum to see if it works.
If it worked ok before it was shipped, then I would say it was damaged during shipping. Many things can happen to a PC when it's shipped. Anything from excessive heat to static electricity can be a cause. Something also may have been knocked ajar inside the case or damaged from being shoved around.
All I know is a blank screen with no post can mean just about anything. I don't think it's your memory at least. You would still get a POST if so. And a video card issue would still produce beeps. Here's my list of possibilities..
1. Something is shorted. You might try cleaning the inside with some compressed air in case something is shorting out the motherboard or another componant. also make sure the motherboard isn't touching the case anywhere other than whrre it is mounted.
2. Bad battery. Seems to have some of the symptoms. However, I would think you would at least POST if this was the problem.
3. Static Electricity Damage. This is an often overlooked problem that can happen to any computer componant that is touched. Fixing this problem will require replacement of the bad componant. (Usually a motherboard)
4. Bad Power Supply. Seems consistent with a bad power supply.
To know for sure, you need to isolate as much hardware as you can. Such as booting up with no drives and no PCI cards. (Unless you have a PCI video card). If possible, try another video card if you have one handy. Anything to help you isolate the cause helps you determine the problem.
Posted by: Mr. Nip
Oh, could it be a power supply problem even if the fans (power supply, cpu, video card) have power and the power lights are going on?
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
Well it's possible but I would more likely bet on something is shorted out, or you have a bad CPU or motherboard. If you can borrow another power supply, it's worth a try but I wouldn't buy anything else without having a computer technician test your hardware.
Of course if you have plenty of spare hardware such as a backup CPU and motherboard, that might help.
Posted by: Mr. Nip
I thought I'd bring this thread back from the dead, because my problem is fixed. For the sum of $50 (Canadian), the local repair shop fiddled around inside my computer and found... nothing wrong. After a thorough check and cleaning, they booted it and it worked. Go figure. It was already pretty clean, so I imagine they just found something dislodged that I didn't, and stuck it back into place.
It works fine now, I guess, but as usual there are weird side effects. For example, now sometimes I get these strange warning messages in Windows that certain files have been 'replaced with an older version by a program you have recently run', and that I have to 'restart Windows to repair these files' because they are currently 'in use'. Of course, they're always 'in use' so they're never repaired and I keep getting the messages. They're all DLLs.
Also I now get a BSOD right before shutdown. All I have to do is press a key and it shuts down fine, though.
I realize this isn't a software forum, but these problems are tangentially related to my initial problem. Any help would be great.
Posted by: TotalRecall
Those errors may just be a Windows thing. Windows is known for slowly killing itself and related files.
A reformat may be due. 
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