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WC3 vs. NWN's: Who will sell more?
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Posted by: Gunslinger
Slug out?
No contest. War3 by TKO in 2.
Posted by: Null Actor
War3 is the suck. NWN is far more fun than war3.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
Looking forward to NWN is a good way to end up dissappointed.
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Posted by: 9:35
!!
Posted by: Xtren
I have to admit that Warcraft III is going to stand no chance whatsoever.
NeverWinter Nights is just going to be a better game 'nough said.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Have you "played" Neverwinter Nights?
Ick.
Ick.
Ick.
Posted by: Nfested
More people will definitely buy WC3.
Posted by: 9:35
"I have to admit that Warcraft III is going to stand no chance whatsoever."
are you kidding? for christs sake, people still play diablo 2. if blizzard can have people playing shitty games two years later, they'll have absolutly no trouble with warcraft 3.
Posted by: Freak
n/m diablo II, look at STARCRAFT.
But then you can't really compare since Bioware has never made a decent Multiplayer game.
Posted by: Nfested
There's always a first.
Diablo II is a stronger example than Starcraft. Since many people consider Starcraft to be one of the best RTSs ever, of course people would still be playing it now.
Posted by: Gunslinger
A stronger example?
How about, not even close to even resembling any possible worthy example of the point that was being made?
Posted by: Nfested
Here is what was previously said.
Quote:
Originally posted by 9:35
"I have to admit that Warcraft III is going to stand no chance whatsoever."
are you kidding? for christs sake, people still play diablo 2. if blizzard can have people playing shitty games two years later, they'll have absolutly no trouble with warcraft 3.
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And then someone else adds:
Quote:
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n/m diablo II, look at STARCRAFT.
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What I meant was that Diablo II is not a very good game and yet a lot of people play it. Starcraft is not as good of an argument because it is a very good game and does not show Blizzard's ability to attract customers as much as D2.
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Canis Lupus
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Yup, that's what I said, and I still maintain it. NWN is less than I expected. But, it still has a few strengths.
But war3 just plain sucks.
Posted by: Gunslinger
War3 I'm in for the single player.
The multi will need a lot of work, I think, before I get into it seriously.
Posted by: Xtren
I just think NwN is going to beat War3 out.
I guess I shouldn't have said "War3 will stand no chance whatsoever" though. I don't think I quite meant it that way.
The simple fact is the NwN is going to be the first great RPG since BG2, and therefore more people will want to buy that game than another RTS.
Posted by: Gunslinger
The only simple fact here is that the two games aren't comparable in the slightest.
Posted by: Bobaroo
is NwN an RPG type game?
Posted by: Xtren
Quote:
Yes it is.
Quote:
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The only simple fact here is that the two games aren't comparable in the slightest.
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Whichever game will get more sales has nothing to do with similarities between the two games. It has to do with which one better appeals to the buyers. In this case, NwN, which will ne the best RPG in a very long time, should be of more interest to a larger amount of people.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Are kidding? More appealing to a larger amount of people?
Not a chance.
An RPG "outselling" a Blizzard RTS?
Riiiiiiight.
Niche market outselling a broad market?
Not a chance.
Posted by: Xtren
You will probably be surprised, NwN in fact has been a much more anticipated game since it was announced.
Bioware doesn't mean rip-off by the way. Just because they haven't made many good games doesn't at all mean that this one won't be a success.
Deus Ex wasn't exactly a broad market release, but the game has been very successful.
I'd still give the edge to the underdogs in this case.
Posted by: redwench
edge? underdogs? this aint a competition. jeezus.
Posted by: Xtren
It looks like both games are going to have a big impact on the way the other sells though. If the games were released at different times it would be much better for both developpers.
Posted by: Null Actor
There is no way in hell NWN will outsell WC3. NWN will be lucky to hit a million units... WC3 will sell a million within a month of its release.
Posted by: Xtren
The statistics won't be as lopsided as you think they will be. It will be very tight whichever way it goes.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
The statistics won't be as lopsided as you think they will be. It will be very tight whichever way it goes.
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I dunno, I don't see any proof that it will be a tight race in terms of number of units sold. WarCraft 3 sales will blow NWN sales away, not only because the former is made by Blizzard (and Blizz hasn't sold a flop yet), but because there are significantly more people who play RTS than RPG ...
Posted by: Xtren
That's surprising to me. I've always favorized RPGs over RTS games.
I still think that fact though will have very little impact on the choice made here though. I just think NwN was much more anticipated, and is going to recieve much more attention.
Posted by: 9:35
"That's surprising to me. I've always favorized RPGs over RTS games."
of course its surprising to you if you have bias.
tell me. would you rather spend a year playing the same rpg over and over again, same storyline and all, day after day, or play a rts, multiplayer, hell, even alone against computer players, with different maps, strategies, and opponents?
its like choosing to watch a rerun or the new episodes.
"WC3 will sell a million within a month of its release."
months.. try days
Posted by: Xtren
Quote:
Originally posted by 9:35
would you rather spend a year playing the same rpg over and over again, same storyline and all, day after day, or play a rts, multiplayer, hell, even alone against computer players, with different maps, strategies, and opponents?
its like choosing to watch a rerun or the new episodes.
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You obviously don't know much about NwN.
The multiplayer, up to 64 players, will be great, plus the DMs will keep on making new quests and campaigns so that you won't get bored, and the game will not be therefore repetitive.
The singleplayer campaign, keep in mind wil take more than 100 hours of straight play. It will be a longer game than BG and BG2.
Posted by: Gunslinger
It doesn't matter how much we know about NWN (and speaking of that, as far as I know, there's only two people in this entire site who have played it...me, and Nova).
What matters is, is that RPGs are a niche market. To add to Nova's comments, Warcraft 3 has already presold some 4 million units (that's the number I saw, seems inflated, but I wouldn't doubt it to be true). RTS is not a niche market. There's more people that will buy War3 just for the single player than there will be for all of NWN. Then, there's the millions who will play online after that.
NWN won't come close. Not even close. Not even a little bit. No way. No how.
Posted by: Xtren
This is truning out to be like the Xbox vs PS2 discussion, except this time it seems that no one shares my opinion.... I hate coming out on the losing end.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Unlike the Xbox vs PS2 discussion, we'll know the definite answer to this debate in less than a month...
Posted by: Xtren
You've got a point there.
Posted by: Kdr Kane
Xtren,
WC3 will outsell NWN simply by it's sales in Korea. The Korean sales will outstrip all of NWN sales completely. They'll probably sell a million Korean copies.
You don't even have to take into account the rest of the world.
Not that I would ever buy WC3 anyway. 
Posted by: Xtren
Don't get me wrong, I love Warcraft III, it's just that I don't think the game quite lives up to expectations really.
Posted by: Spider
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
The multiplayer, up to 64 players, will be great, plus the DMs will keep on making new quests and campaigns so that you won't get bored, and the game will not be therefore repetitive.
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That's exactly why it will suck. They won't make stories and quests, they'll be like "I rox, I'll boost you up" just like in Vampire.
Posted by: Xtren
Well hopefully most of these DMs will have a general idea of what they're doing.
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
You obviously don't know much about NwN.
The multiplayer, up to 64 players, will be great, plus the DMs will keep on making new quests and campaigns so that you won't get bored, and the game will not be therefore repetitive.
The singleplayer campaign, keep in mind wil take more than 100 hours of straight play. It will be a longer game than BG and BG2.
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You obviously don't know as much as you think.
The multiplayer could go up to 64 players, yes, but you'll require dedicated servers with fat bandwidth to run it.
Who are these magical DMs you speak of? There won't be as much new content as you think there will... because most of it will suck. And even if there were... considering mods won't change the tilesets or characters in the game, it will still feel repetitive.
And the single player isn't larger than BG2... I don't know where you get that idea... NWN isn't as big as BG2.
As for this whole sales thing, BG and BG2 barely hit a million... if they even did. That's a grey area... but they didn't sell as much as people seem to think. Blizzard games however... well, we all know how that goes. WC3 could be worse shit than diablo2, and it will still sell probably at least 3 time what NWN will.
NWN has around a half million preorders I believe... now, consider, most of the people waiting for NWN are hardcore fanatics. Few other people truly care about this came. I doubt it will sell as much after release as it did in preorders.
Posted by: Xtren
I'm positive that NwN is bigger than BG2. Plus the Persistant worlds will make NwN a better game. I'll be playing in TORIL anyway. The DMs ought to be fairly qualified because they have to apply of course, as do members.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Yeah, OSI's GMs knew what they were doing too, right?
UO wasn't repetitive at all because the GMs were always adding quests and the like, right?
I wouldn't be commenting on the lousiness of NWN if I hadn't played it already. It's the same old crap that's been around for years, with improved graphics and a lot more hype.
Granted, you probably should try it. Different strokes for different folks. But, you need to keep your opinions down to a level of speculation until you get some game time in. This way, we don't get the aforementioned PS2 vs XBox arguments.
Posted by: Xtren
I sure hope I'll like the game, been waiting for it for a very long time.
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
I'm positive that NwN is bigger than BG2.
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Yeah, difference is, you didn't work for Bioware.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Woosh!
3 points.
Posted by: Xtren
Lol ok I never knew that.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Put your hand up if you have played NWN?
Ahh, nobody.
Now, I love Blizzard, Starcraft is one of the best games of all time.
However, War3 has no chance at being better than NWN. Simple as that.
Imagine if Everquest was free. Imagine if Ultima Online was free. Imagine if Diablo had over 24 trillion (calculated, not made up, also, that only includes armour, not any other equipment) UNIQUE character looks, with thousands class/race combinations, imagine if every RPG ever made was made to look prettier than DS (by a bloody mile if I may say so)
Now, you have NWN.
Remember Planescape: Torment? Module in the works. Remember <insert favourite rpg here>? There's a module in the works. Ever want to play Evequest, only with no fees? Module in the works.
Ever wanted to play BG in 3d? Module in the works. Ever thought, I want to play Warcraft 3, but I wan't all of my units to be able to gain 20 levels, and have my heroes controlled by real players? Module in the works.
War3 will initially beat NWN for sales, but sales aren't the measure of a games worth. Who's favourite game is The Sims (incedentally, module in the works)? Who's favourite game is Myst? What, I can't hear you?
Oi, would somebody please punch out that kid with the glasses at the back!
Ahem.
What if you had the (bloody easy to use) tools to create your own D20 RPG?
Coupled with the (admittedly unsupported) wordpad editing of the rules ( http://neverwinter404.tripod.com/2da.zip if anybody wants to have a look at 'em), the toolset allows you to recreate basically ANYTHING you can imagine.
Including an RPS game, ala the original War3 concept, or a real RTS, ala, say, Starcraft. I'm not saying a non-RPG would be easy to make mind you, but I've figured out how to do it.
Who likes Fallout 2? Module in the works.
Who want everything made by the developers to be open source? Done.
Who wants to play Diablo again? Module in the works.
The possibilities are endless.
I myself am a role-player (as opposed to a power gamer), so in NWN I won't be playing those Diablo modules. I'll be playing PnP style campaigns. I'll be playing on Role-Playing enforced PSWs (Toril, ALFA, THe Diamond Isles are some of the best).
But other players won't go near stuff like that. They'll play these massive dungeon hacks, with something like 100 levels of dungeon hacking hackness (it'd probably take a week to make 100 quality levels, two days to make 200 crappy ones).
NWN is forging a new genre of RPGs, it is every RPG ever released, plus so much more. It is PnP on PC, plus so much more, it is the continuation of Bioware's RPG history, plus so much more.
I hope to see you all in NWN, but if not, I'm still playing Starcraft.
Ciao
--btw--
A LOT of people still play BG1, that game is VERY, VERY old. And it wasn't really that good.
Oh yeah. The BG games sold 4 or 5 million copies.
I know for a fact that there are over 3000 quality Dungeon Masters working on stuff, mostly from the "DMs" section of my Address book.
Also, 64 players are hostable on a Cable connection. An ISDN line could handle 50 or so probably. A 56k can handle three players (including the host) easily, you could squeeze on another one or two if you were near each other and it wasn't peak time.
I myself have a T1 and T3. The T3 will be dedicated to NWN 24/7. I know another guy who is organising a world that will be capable of hosting 256 players and DMs. Also I am playing on a world that will be capable of hosting THOUSANDS of players. On release about 1000 will be possible, although they're going to go slower than that.
See ya in NWN guys.
G'Day Xtren!
Posted by: Gunslinger
Quote:
Originally posted by Althaz-Tempest
Put your hand up if you have played NWN?
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Uhhh....actually.....
*puts up hand*
I believe Nova's is up as well.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Final version I mean?
It went gold on Sunday (well, officially on Tuesday, but really on Monday). How'd you get it! I've got to wait some time for it, darn being in Australia!
Do anything interesting? btw, Please don't give away spoilers.
Played with the toolset? Seen how easy it is to do basically anything? Bloody easy ay?
Oh yeah: Will War3 come with a map editor similar to Starcraft, 'cause that was a decent one?
Ahem, back to NWN:
You an RPG or an RTS fan? Played War3? which one do you like better?
I myself was an RTS fan, but no longer!
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
btw, While I think NW will be the better game. I think the initial sales battle will go to Blizzard and War3, except in Australia. Half of the BG1 fans didn't get BG2 cause they wanted to wait for NWN. BG1 was the bestselling game in the year it came out.
Aussie Aussie Aussie! Oi Oi Oi!
Oh yeah, for some (like, info for players) info on NWN. Try http://neverwinter404.rpgstars.com
The player guide has got plenty of stuff. Not everything, but a lot of stuff.
Posted by: Gunslinger
No piracy talk please.
I played NWN for about an hour at E3. Got a pretty good feel for the game, and got to see exactly what it would be like. Same old stuff. Nothing interesting...or even fun.
I saw the toolset for NWN, but didn't mess with it. It appeared rather complex. I'm not a world builder though, so I didn't pay it much heed.
Yes I have played the beta of Warcraft 3. War 3 will be released with a map editor. *snipped out comment by Gunslinger*
I like games that are fun. The RTS genre is almost always fun for me. I love Warcraft 3. If an RPG is fun, I will play it. Mostly, I liked the Final Fantasy games and the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale games. I even liked Fallout. The MMORPGs do'nt really do it for me (granted, I almost got into DAOC), and the more and more I think about it, the more I drift to agree with several of Nova's viewpoints on them. They're just the same old crap. Boring quests aren't fun. Lack of roleplaying isn't fun. How many times can you walk in a town, and there are players selling their wares for fun, instead of hunting monsters? Rarely. How many times can you run out in the wilderness and see a group camping for the monsters to respawn? Pretty friggin often. There's just no point. It's called an RPG, but nobody is playing a role. They're just building a character to uberness.
Where's the fun in that?
Anyway. After my experience with MMORPGs, and after actually playing NWN and seeing what new ideas it had to offer (none), I concluded that it was the same old thing. I'll not abandon them and play only one genre, though. If something comes out, and it's fun, I'm there.
Posted by: Xtren
Quote:
Originally posted by Althaz-Tempest
Oh yeah: Will War3 come with a map editor similar to Starcraft, 'cause that was a decent one?
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Warcraft III has world editor that allows you to customize just about everything in the game. It is hard to use though, from what I've heard but it will undoubtably be better than Starcrafts.
As for NwN, you're right Althaz, I think it will be a better game too, or of you want that rephrased, I think I will like the game better than Warcraft III judging the Warcraft III beta of course. I know Gunslinger and Nova have played both games but perhaps their opinions differ.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Different strokes for different folks, yes?
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
you're nearing 1000 posts mate. That's quite a few. Hell, it took me a month to get 500 posts on the old ST boards 
That "harder to use" aint good news. There should be a few basic features that are bloody easy to use, with the power for other stuff in there as well.
ala Aurora.
Posted by: Xtren
Quote:
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Anyway. After my experience with MMORPGs, and after actually playing NWN and seeing what new ideas it had to offer (none), I concluded that it was the same old thing. I'll not abandon them and play only one genre, though. If something comes out, and it's fun, I'm there.
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Do you even like RPGs, because by the way you put it you don't seem to think very highly of them. If you just don't like that type of game than of course you won't like NwN.
Just another question I want to ask you too, what exactly is so much better about BG2 than about NwN, they are of the same genre, and NwN is supposed to be an improvement.
Posted by: Gunslinger
At the time, Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 wasn't the same old stuff. It was new and it was fun.
NWN is the same old thing. The true vision of an RPG is still being lost.
I like RPGs. Final Fantasy, for instance. Do peopl really play that so they can level up a character that nobody else sees?
No. They played it, because the role being played and the story are interesting. That is the defining characteristic of an RPG -- That a role is being played. That was happening in Baldur's Gate, to an extent, with the single player rendition of the game. That's fine. As soon as you take it online, it's nothing of the sort. People just want to be uber and go treasure hunting for the 1337est gear.
Posted by: Xtren
I love final fantasy games as well, but whatever those games lack in gameplay, games like NwN should make up for.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
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Different strokes for different folks, yes?
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AHAHAHAHA! My mate said that the other night for no reason when I was rather drunk. God it was funny (Xtren: that was the time I got so drunk I cheered for England *shudder*).
Quote:
No piracy talk please.
I played NWN for about an hour at E3. Got a pretty good feel for the game, and got to see exactly what it would be like. Same old stuff. Nothing interesting...or even fun.
I saw the toolset for NWN, but didn't mess with it. It appeared rather complex. I'm not a world builder though, so I didn't pay it much heed.
Yes I have played the beta of Warcraft 3. War 3 will be released with a map editor. *snipped out comment by Gunslinger*
I like games that are fun. The RTS genre is almost always fun for me. I love Warcraft 3. If an RPG is fun, I will play it. Mostly, I liked the Final Fantasy games and the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale games. I even liked Fallout. The MMORPGs do'nt really do it for me (granted, I almost got into DAOC), and the more and more I think about it, the more I drift to agree with several of Nova's viewpoints on them. They're just the same old crap. Boring quests aren't fun. Lack of roleplaying isn't fun. How many times can you walk in a town, and there are players selling their wares for fun, instead of hunting monsters? Rarely. How many times can you run out in the wilderness and see a group camping for the monsters to respawn? Pretty friggin often. There's just no point. It's called an RPG, but nobody is playing a role. They're just building a character to uberness.
Where's the fun in that?
Anyway. After my experience with MMORPGs, and after actually playing NWN and seeing what new ideas it had to offer (none), I concluded that it was the same old thing. I'll not abandon them and play only one genre, though. If something comes out, and it's fun, I'm there
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Err, nothing new? Umm, ROVE! (that means "WHAT THE..?" in Australian)
You didn't really get a feel for the game if you think "nothing new' and you are supporting War3
NWN is possibly one of the most revolutionary titles in the last couple of years. Besides that, it's the first game where role-players are actually killing powergamers (err, I mean the community is really not helping PGers out at all).
The toolset is bloody easy to use. I've used it. Anybody who could make a Starcraft map, could EASILY make a NWN map. A basic map is slightly easier to make. Terrain can be done randomly, so all you have to do is place encounters. You coul recreate, say, Dungeon Siege, in not very long at all (like in only a little longer than it takes to finish the game). Obviously, a complicated moduoe will take longer, but whatever you try to do, it's remarkably easy. remarkably so. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's the easiest AND most powerful editor I have ever used.
Oh yeah, I thnk you'll find that munchkins and PGers will become bored rather quickly with NWN. Sure, they can play endlessly different hack&slash until they die, but as with all H&S, it'll get boring quickly. Building to Uberness is pointless. Give me twenty seconds...
There. I just whipped up a module with a trigger that sets you to level 20 as soon as you move from the circle you start in.
Legit duels may hold interest, as will party vs party combat, and wars between guilds will be a blast, but PGers aren't going to have fun leveling to uberness.
NWN is all about role-playing. The planed PWs are almost all RO enforced. Anybody not RPing will simply be booted, and I speak as a DM, a server operator, and a bloke who knows some other blokes.
NWN is a revolution. Or, no, that's the wrong term. NWN is the culmination of every RPG made to date. If you play NWN, and play Morrowind (very nice), and play Arx, you'll have played the RPG genre at it's best. It's setting the benchmark for what every RPG MUST do from now on. It's what BG, Torment and Fallout players have dreamed of. It is something that PnP players have only dreamed of. Also: As for sales, have you ever seen the sales figures for the D&D books?
More importantly, hae you seen the size of the community?
Posted by: Xtren
There's nothing all that new about Warcraft III either when you compare it to other RTS games. The only thing that makes the game stand out is that it is improved in all the fundimental areas. The way the game is played does not differ from previous RTS games though.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
Originally posted by Gunslinger
At the time, Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 wasn't the same old stuff. It was new and it was fun.
NWN is the same old thing. The true vision of an RPG is still being lost.
I like RPGs. Final Fantasy, for instance. Do peopl really play that so they can level up a character that nobody else sees?
No. They played it, because the role being played and the story are interesting. That is the defining characteristic of an RPG -- That a role is being played. That was happening in Baldur's Gate, to an extent, with the single player rendition of the game. That's fine. As soon as you take it online, it's nothing of the sort. People just want to be uber and go treasure hunting for the 1337est gear.
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You don't really understand the community surrounding the game. Some of us RPers have gone so far as to form a Union of RPing only guilds.
We NWNers don't like PGing. Some of the n00b NWNers are going to be Munchkins and PGers, but there are WAY MORE RPers than PGers.
Also, NWN gameplay is a LOT different to BG gameplay, to be fair, I'm yet to play the final version, but I HAVE played a lot of D&D. 3E is vastly different to 2E, and BG was very similar to 2E PnP, minus most ofthe good bits, plus a few good bits of Bioware's own
Posted by: Gunslinger
Right. You really think that, just because uber leveling is indeed boring, that the people are going to see that and play the game the way it was intended? What's so special about NWN that suggests this will happen here where it hasn't happened in so many games before it?
All of the kiddies still play AO, and EQ, and DAOC, and BG, how do you think this is going to be any different with NWN? I really don't see what's so revolutionary about it. Maybe if you add a few small features and call it a revolution, then perhaps. The whole "anybody not RPing will be booted" rules are utter crap. I've seen it tried, and I've seen it fail.
I'll believe any sentinement about NWN that is contrary to my own educated opinion, when I see it.
Secondly, it was established earlier in this thread that you can't really compare Warcraft 3 with Neverwinter Nights. They're completely different, but if you must, I will also. To draw on the parallel you were trying to establish, Warcraft is very much differnet than it's predecessors. The only thing similar is the gathering of resources to advance your cause. The means for advancing your cause are much different, much more complex, and much more (keyword here) fun. Once again, my educated opinion.
I won't argue which one is the better game, though. That's pointless and as Xtren pointed out earlier = PS2 vs XBox.
I will argue, and easily so, that NWN doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever outselling Warcraft 3 at any point in it's life (not that it really matters). The size of the DND community and the volume of books sold is quite a moot point. It doesn't matter. I was never a DND player, yet I purchased Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale. I can guarantee you that a small percentage of DND players ever purchased the game.
Being based on DND isn't the selling point. The selling point is the story, and the gameplay (without story, NWN is sunk, by that reasoning). It's an RPG, and RPGs are in a niceh market...meaning...the market for them is friggin small! There's more people who will buy Warcraft 3 and never even take it online than there will be people who buy NWN for any reason. RTS isn't a niche market. It's a friggin huge market. There's a ton of fans, and the name Blizzard carries a hell of a lot more clout than the name Bioware.
None of this has anything to do with the merit of the game. It doesn't really matter which one is better. War 3 will outsell, though. Easily.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
it is improved in all the fundimental areas.
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Exactly. The fundamentals have changed drastically. Good point, I would have made it myself, but when the fundamentals of something change (the actual backbone, not just the bells and whistles), then the game itself has changed into something else.
Thankee sai. You have spoken true.
Edit: Been monitoring forums for too long. I'm going to stop talking about games and start playing them.
Posted by: Xtren
Warcraft III should outsell NeverWinter Nghts simply because more people would rather trust Blizzard than Bioware.
Posted by: redwench
i think this needs to be moved to rants now. it officially qualifies at 5 pages
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Right. You really think that, just because uber leveling is indeed boring, that the people are going to see that and play the game the way it was intended? What's so special about NWN that suggests this will happen here where it hasn't happened in so many games before it?
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Umm, the community? You ought to stop by for a visit sometime you know.
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All of the kiddies still play AO, and EQ, and DAOC, and BG, how do you think this is going to be any different with NWN? I really don't see what's so revolutionary about it. Maybe if you add a few small features and call it a revolution, then perhaps. The whole "anybody not RPing will be booted" rules are utter crap. I've seen it tried, and I've seen it fail.
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Well, you aint seen nothin' yet!
The thing is, you have to prove yourself a RPer to be allowed onto these worlds. And if you let slip... KICK!
Players have already been booted from PWs, the game isn't even released yet.
Quote:
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I'll believe any sentinement about NWN that is contrary to my own educated opinion, when I see it.
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That's a fair enough statement
A little one-eyed though (not nessecarily a bad thing, I'm a Collingwood supporter after all )
Quote:
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Secondly, it was established earlier in this thread that you can't really compare Warcraft 3 with Neverwinter Nights. They're completely different, but if you must, I will also. To draw on the parallel you were trying to establish, Warcraft is very much differnet than it's predecessors. The only thing similar is the gathering of resources to advance your cause. The means for advancing your cause are much different, much more complex, and much more (keyword here) fun. Once again, my educated opinion.
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I completely disagree. The basis of the game is identical: Get resources, build army. RUSH! Not nessecarily un-fun (hell, look at SC), but the game is no different!
Quote:
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I won't argue which one is the better game, though. That's pointless and as Xtren pointed out earlier = PS2 vs XBox.
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Good idea. We both know NWN will win 
Quote:
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I will argue, and easily so, that NWN doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever outselling Warcraft 3 at any point in it's life (not that it really matters). The size of the DND community and the volume of books sold is quite a moot point. It doesn't matter. I was never a DND player, yet I purchased Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale. I can guarantee you that a small percentage of DND players ever purchased the game.
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It's rather painfully obvious that you aren't really cled in on NWN. At all. Out of all the PnP players that I know, every single one of them is buying NWN. I haven't even done any convincing yet. NWN is HUGE in the PnP community. Hardly any PnPers bought BG. Less bought BG2. Know why? NWN.
The word has spread, NWN will kickarse. Let's get ready to rumble!
Quote:
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Being based on DND isn't the selling point. The selling point is the story, and the gameplay (without story, NWN is sunk, by that reasoning). It's an RPG, and RPGs are in a niceh market...meaning...the market for them is friggin small! There's more people who will buy Warcraft 3 and never even take it online than there will be people who buy NWN for any reason. RTS isn't a niche market. It's a friggin huge market. There's a ton of fans, and the name Blizzard carries a hell of a lot more clout than the name Bioware.
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The D&D tag WILL sell.
War3 will sell. That I don't doubt. Blizzard are the kings of hype. But NWN WILL be better (NWN compared to other RPGs wins hands down, War3 can't possibly be better than SC and Homeworld, better than 1, but not both), and eventually, because of the support it will recieve (from Bioware, and the community), it will sell better. I may be wrong, but I don't think that I am.
Quote:
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None of this has anything to do with the merit of the game. It doesn't really matter which one is better. War 3 will outsell, though. Easily.
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War3 will outsell. Initially. But, over time (err, I'm assuming we take Blizzardland* out of the equation, that's a cheat if ever I saw one ), NWN will outsell War3. In Australia. Guaranteed. In Canada, guaranteed, in France, guaranteed, outside of the US support for NWN is MASSIVE. America isn't the world ya know
*Blizzardland = Korea, as everybody knows. I talked to a group of Koreans once that owned 37 copies of SC between the 13 of 'em. One guy bought one for his six year old sister. And his cat. And his dog. Yes, I'm serious.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Exactly. The fundamentals have changed drastically. Good point, I would have made it myself, but when the fundamentals of something change (the actual backbone, not just the bells and whistles), then the game itself has changed into something else.
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Err, the fundamentals haven't changed much in War3.
In NWN, they aren't even similar to previous games.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
Originally posted by redwench
i think this needs to be moved to rants now. it officially qualifies at 5 pages
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BG fan? (you've got Jaheira's pic)
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Hmm, I'm off to bed (it's 5am here). I'll be back to arugue vhemently later!
I'd like to leave you with a thought: One of my friends, who didn't own a computer three weeks ago. Is purchasing NWN. He's never played PnP, he's never bought a computer game. He's computer literate, but he isn't a gamer. He wants to play NWN because he's a fan of the (awesome) David Eddings novels, and I told him somebody is making them a game.
NWN sparks people.
'Night!
Posted by: Canis Lupus
I had a friend who did not own a computer six months ago, and never played any game other than those free Yahoo games ... guess what? She's purchasing The Sims. She's not even THAT computer literate, and for sure she isn't a gamer. But she's a fan of voyeur sites, and visits sites with webcams all day...
So what does this mean? Absolutely nothing. It's an isolated incident, like your example.
Hope you had a good sleep...
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Althaz-Tempest
NWN will outsell War3. In Australia. Guaranteed. In Canada, guaranteed, in France, guaranteed, outside of the US support for NWN is MASSIVE. America isn't the world ya know
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Care to put some money on that? Coz I'm almost sure that you will be wrong .... bah, "guaranteed" indeed ...
Posted by: Gunslinger
Everything he has said is one big anecdote. Take that into consideration when you see the word "guarantee."
And of course, everything isn't the US. But I'm sure you can tell me in which country Blizzard games are the most popular. It isn't the US.
And perhaps wenchy is right. Time for R/R.
Posted by: Xtren
Blizzard games are very popular in every country, but people have been keeping their eye on NwN for quite a while now as well, so it is indeed that the developper of the game is going to make all the difference in the world to their choice, because these are equally anticipated games.
I however don't think the statistics will be all the lopsided. In some countries, as Althaz said, NwN will probably outsell Warcraft III. In some countries, perhaps the vast majority, Warcraft III will outsell NwN.
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
Quote:
Originally posted by Althaz-Tempest
BG fan? (you've got Jaheira's pic)
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Who do you think posed for that pic?
Posted by: Null Actor
This is an absolutely hilarious thread...
64 players on a cable modem? HAHAHAHAHAHHAAH fat chance. Maybe on canadian cable, in edmonton, where bioware is, but not likely elsewhere. Cable modems there are 3mbit down and 1.5mbit up. Completely uncapped. That's more bandwidth than a T1 my friend.
NWN is like War3? Wow, are you sure you are looking at the right games? NWN you don't build an army... you only ever control one player. You can have a few hirelings... but nothing even remotely the scope of warcraft 3.
NWN isn't like baldur's gate? Yeah right. Single player, the game is nearly a direct copy, only in 3d. Except you can only control one character directly.
And you've got some seriously wrong ideas about what can be done with NWN. But I'll leave that to you to discover. Also, you are seriously mistaken as to how much quality modules will come from people... most people make shit. Most people won't ever finish a module. Certainly, the likelyhood of someone making a module which is anywhere near the scope of the single player game is unlikely at best. You think a single person, working in their spare time, can match the might of 20+ people making modules as a living? Sorry, but you are gonna wake up like someone dropped a bucket of ice in your pants.
Oh... and finally... You think NWN can outsell War3? Can you name a country where nearly every person in the country will purchase the game? I can for warcraft 3... Korea.
Oh... and by the way, the entire baldur's gate series, including both games, both expansions, and the demo that was for sale... barely cracked 3 million copies. 4-5 million my ass.
Posted by: Kdr Kane
Quote:
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It's rather painfully obvious that you aren't really cled in on NWN. At all. Out of all the PnP players that I know, every single one of them is buying NWN. I haven't even done any convincing yet. NWN is HUGE in the PnP community. Hardly any PnPers bought BG. Less bought BG2. Know why? NWN.
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You lost me on that argument. They didn't buy Baldur's Gate or Baldur's Gate 2, yet you expect them to buy Neverwinter Nights?
That's the most silly bit of reasoning I've seen in a while.
Posted by: Xtren
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
Oh... and finally... You think NWN can outsell War3? Can you name a country where nearly every person in the country will purchase the game? I can for warcraft 3... Korea.
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You mean like 5 percent of their population right? There is almost 50 million people in Korea.
Posted by: Gunslinger
He was exaggerating. And you do know that 5% of 50 million is 2.5 million...right? 5% is a pretty good estimate too.
You think War3 will sell that many copies in the United States?
I don't, but it will come close.
Then, there's European sales.
Neverwinter Nights is going to get dominated, in *every* country. It's not even going to come close. Not a chance.
So, ballpark here, we looking at upwards of 5 million copies or more. Blizzard's initial shipment to retailers worlwide is consisting of 4.5 million units. That's just the first wave.
Tons of copies. NWN will be lucky to break 1 million. 1.5 at best.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Hmm, excuse my rather groggy posts. But I've had a few hours sleep. And I'm back
"Guaranteed" wasn't supposed to mean "guaranteed". Or at least, I don't think so. Anyway, where was I?
Quote:
64 players on a cable modem? HAHAHAHAHAHHAAH fat chance. Maybe on canadian cable, in edmonton, where bioware is, but not likely elsewhere. Cable modems there are 3mbit down and 1.5mbit up. Completely uncapped. That's more bandwidth than a T1 my friend.
NWN is like War3? Wow, are you sure you are looking at the right games? NWN you don't build an army... you only ever control one player. You can have a few hirelings... but nothing even remotely the scope of warcraft 3.
NWN isn't like baldur's gate? Yeah right. Single player, the game is nearly a direct copy, only in 3d. Except you can only control one character directly.
And you've got some seriously wrong ideas about what can be done with NWN. But I'll leave that to you to discover. Also, you are seriously mistaken as to how much quality modules will come from people... most people make shit. Most people won't ever finish a module. Certainly, the likelyhood of someone making a module which is anywhere near the scope of the single player game is unlikely at best. You think a single person, working in their spare time, can match the might of 20+ people making modules as a living? Sorry, but you are gonna wake up like someone dropped a bucket of ice in your pants.
Oh... and finally... You think NWN can outsell War3? Can you name a country where nearly every person in the country will purchase the game? I can for warcraft 3... Korea.
Oh... and by the way, the entire baldur's gate series, including both games, both expansions, and the demo that was for sale... barely cracked 3 million copies. 4-5 million my ass.
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64 players on a cable modem is pretty easy. Not much gets transferred. Basically the only thing getting tranferred is the actions and movements of the characters. And the results of scripts, although that may be done all ont the clients machine. Remember, 56k hosts 3 (including the host). Cable gets 64, no probs. Still, glad I've got a T3 and T1.
Err, whoever said War3 is like NWN? Umm, NOBODY.
NWN is a LOT different to BG. If all you had was single player, it'd probably be the same as, say, War3 (NWN) Vs War2 (BG).
Otherwise they are completely different games.
Umm, I've got the toolset in my hands as we speak. What exactly do you think I can't do?
You have absolutely no idea. People have been playing PnP, making PnP modules, DMing PnP for YEARS. We have years and years of experience. And now we have the tools to bring our modules to the PC. I myself have created a city around four times the size of Athkatla from BG2. Do complete every quest (assuming no DMs), would take inexcess of 30 hours. And we really haven't done to much yet. We're still building the NPCs. And each one has a family. Each one has ideas, dreams, jobs (most of 'em) and each one has a quest attached to them. Not nessecarily an important quest. But if you kill somebody, something will happen. Each guard has a family. They all go home at the end of the day to their families, if they have one. If one dies, there will be a funeral. His family and friends will attend.
And I am not the entire community. From one of the PWs I'll be playing on, they sent me an intro pack, it was in pdf format, very professional. Was probably about 20 pages long.
Err, you didn't ACTUALLY read this thread did you?
Umm, official figures from last year were over four million. I'm saying only what I know really
Posted by: redwench
oh dear lord.
*attempts to drag thread to rants and raves unsuccessfully*
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
Originally posted by Gunslinger
He was exaggerating. And you do know that 5% of 50 million is 2.5 million...right? 5% is a pretty good estimate too.
You think War3 will sell that many copies in the United States?
I don't, but it will come close.
Then, there's European sales.
Neverwinter Nights is going to get dominated, in *every* country. It's not even going to come close. Not a chance.
So, ballpark here, we looking at upwards of 5 million copies or more. Blizzard's initial shipment to retailers worlwide is consisting of 4.5 million units. That's just the first wave.
Tons of copies. NWN will be lucky to break 1 million. 1.5 at best.
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Umm, NWN will be unlucky not to make 2 million. 4-5 million for the BG series, and a lot pulled out of the franchise when they heard about NWN. And as I have said, initially (like, first 18 months), War3 will outsell NWN. But NWN will get it's own back.
btw, know many people from Australia? We're very geared toward NWN. You say War3, we say bugger off.
You say NWN and our eyes light up. At the supermarket on Wednesday, it was announced that NWN had gone gold. And that is absolutely no joke.
Hell, if it wasn't for the very bad timing of NWNs release, I'd say it'd have no trouble making 4 million, plus another million and a half at least over the longer term.
As I said though, the timing will hurt NWN, Bioware/Infogrammes don't have the hype machine that Blizzard have got, nor do they have a country in their pockets.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Althaz-Tempest
As I said though, the timing will hurt NWN, Bioware/Infogrammes don't have the hype machine that Blizzard have got, nor do they have a country in their pockets.
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Which goes back to the original premise ... War3 will definitely outsell NWN ... which was the point we're making all along
edit: oh, and btw Althaz, try to cut down on the namecalling ... it's not helping your cause
Posted by: Spider
War3 is omg so sexy
Posted by: Xtren
I think the main point he's trying to make is that the difference in sales isn't going to be as a large a margin as everyoen is stating.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
I think the main point he's trying to make is that the difference in sales isn't going to be as a large a margin as everyoen is stating.
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But really, how many million units difference would it take to be considered "blowing the competition away"? Does it take just one million? Ten million maybe?
How large is large and how small is small? Which is smaller - itsy bitsy or teeny weeny? Is humongous bigger than gigantic? Or is colossal bigger?
No exact figures were given, so what sales figures and what sales margins are we talking about here?
Posted by: Bobaroo
War3 is going to blow NwN away in sells, without a doubt. Even if NwN is a better game, it will still get less sales. Blizzard is a big name Developer.
And War3 is a great game
Posted by: redwench
*blink*
Posted by: Freak
Uh oh I guess I shouldn't have written that in my news post
I have friends that don't play computer games that have pre-ordered WarCraft III.
I've skimmed over most of the argument and the gist of is it that WarIII will only barely outsell NWN....In my own opinion I think NWN will be top 10 selling in the first 3 months, after that it'll be gone like Empire Earth.
You can expect to see WarCraft III still going on 5 years later, no matter how shitty it is.
4 million copies pre-sold is a LOT. And Gunslinger's right, the RTS market is a helluva lot bigger than the RPG market.
Summer slugout I meant because I'll have a hard time anyways deciding which game to get. Probably I'll end up getting both
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
LOL @ this whole thread.
NWN's has too strict a ruleset for everyone to like. Too much time dealing with rules and less time Role-Playing.
I think the people who will wait to see user opinion on NWN's will see a lot of negative feedback and not buy the game. Third edition AD&D rules is all I needed to know to avoid NWN's.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Yeah, I kinda miss the 2nd Ed rules ... altho the dark paladin is one of the few things I liked about 3rd Ed...
Posted by: Gunslinger
Forget War 3 and NWN.
Daikatana is gonna mop the floor with everyone!
Yeah!
I mean...wait...ummm...yeah...Daikatana!
Posted by: Xtren
Didn't that game come out a while ago.....
Posted by: Spider
Baahhahaah
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
For those interested in knowing more about the MULTITUDE of different ways to play NWN. Here's what happend in a quick competitive game.
Quote:
Team Red: Bob (Monk Thief)
Derrick (Half-Orc Fighter)
Tom (Monk)
Team Blue: Alain (Human Cleric)
Keith (Elf Sorcerer)
Owen (Dwarf Fighter)
Game starts...
Red:
Bob immediately runs out of the room and searches for team Blue.
Tom and Derrick run out the other door in search of Blue.
Blue:
Alain summons Dire Spider, and buffs up Owen.
Keith summons Dire Bear and Familiar.
Owen stares at door, eager for a fight.
Bob with his monk speed finds Team Blue and stealth’s himself outside their door. He reports to the other team where Blue is, and waits for Derrick and Tom to catch up. Alain decides to scout ahead and opens the door, moving ahead with Keith and Owen close behind.
Bob, seeing a beautiful opportunity, sneaks attack Alain with stunning fist, and stuns him. Alain is out for a few rounds. Bob, ready to deliver a coup de gras, is suddenly hit by Keith's magic missiles. Owen tries to step up to close with Bob, but with the clutter of
Summoned animals about, he can’t reach him.
Bob, happy with his sneak attack, runs off.
Keith, not liking the idea of Bob escaping, casts a fireball... Alain screams in fear! The fireball hits Bob (knocking his hit points to dangerous levels), but the blast also hits Alain, knocking him down to 3 hit points! The summoned beasts are pulverized. Owen suffers small damage.
(it's at this point Owen and Alain wonder if Keith is an asset or liability???)
Alain, thinking the worst is over, sees Derrick and Tom rushing in, and squeals in terror.
Keith launches a few more magic missiles at Derrick. Owen (with room to move now) rushes and defends the stunned Alain.
Bob, sensing a quick victory, turns back to the melee.
Tom strikes to stun Owen, but misses. Derrick hits Owen for serious damage. Keith, seeing the desperation, decides to launch another fireball.
Amazingly, Alain's stun is over. Knowing that Keith is sending another ball of fire in his direction flees down an opposite corridor. Owen, seeing the ball of fire moving in his
direction, smiles and prepares for death. Bob, seeing the fireball just as it detonates,
squawks like a chicken.
Owen and Tom burn to a crisp. Derrick takes some nasty damage, and BoB magically survives.
Alain, after healing himself, casts Hammer of the Gods at Derrick. He's hit and stunned,
Meanwhile, Bob, seeing Keith casting another spell (magic missle) attacks Keith and hits
him. Spell is disrupted. Alain finishes off Derrick with a (maximized) negative energy ray.
Derrick drops, but Bob finishes off Keith with a nice upper cut.
Then there were two...
Alain, thinking that the game is his, brings out his morning star and charges Bob. Bob,
with faster feet, runs. After a few rounds, Bob is long gone. Alain, frustrated, hunts down Bob, room by room, smashing doors, looking very tough.
Aha! Alain sees Bob, in the corner of the room he just entered. Alain, prepares Searing Light. Bob, seeing death, cowers.
Well, at this point, I should tell people I had completely forgotten that Bob had some
thief levels. Since Bob was just out of range of my spell, I moved forward a few steps.
SNAP!!!!
Freeze trap. Not just a little one, but one of the Heavy duty ones that cost an arm and
leg, but, in times like these, are well worth it. Alain screams in frustration. He's
frozen. Bob, in a knowing I-Win-You-Lose walk, comes to Alain and promptly beats him to a pulp.
Team Red wins.
...Until next time... I will have my revenge!
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Heh, looks like fun
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
btw, that's a module that will be available for download in about a week for the final release version of NWN.
It's called "Contest of Champions".
That particular game was played with Level 10 characters, with a maximum of $10000 worth of equipment each. You can play with/without any restrictions you want.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Also. A Desert and Snow toolset of high quality are being polished right now. They'll be available for download whenever the teams get their hands on the final version of the game so they can test
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Althaz-Tempest
You have absolutely no idea.
<snip>
Err, you didn't ACTUALLY read this thread did you?
Umm, official figures from last year were over four million. I'm saying only what I know really
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Refresh my memory, out of the two of us, who's name is not in the credits of NWN? I'll give you a hint: It's not me.
You can convince yourself you know more about bioware and their projects than I if you want to... you didn't work there for over two years.
Posted by: Null Actor
Oh and by the way Mr. Know-It-All, it's 30000 gold, not 10000.
And any additional content built by non bioware people will essentially 'replace' anything bioware made. So by changing the content of the game, you will most likely break other peoples' modules, as well as the single player game. Which is why hak packs are completely unsupported.
Posted by: Freak
Nova means he used to be an employee at BioWare.
I believe this is the second time its been stated in this thread.
And yeah you can't underestimate the power of the community. If people can play 12+ hours of EverQuest a day and still make a living, I don't see why they can't produce something similiar to polished if they were so inclined to.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
btw, anybody who thinks NWN won't have long-term sales. You are a FOOL. Bioware are offering better support than any other company ever has. Ever.
Already they are (in their free time mind you) making custom modules (as the one above) for us to download. And it's ALL open source. Also, in NWN, if you don't want to deal with rules, you don't ever have to encounter them. There are various (read: dozens) of class packages which select all of your feats skills for you. It selects the ones best for the package you have chosen.
You don't ever have to get more complicated that DS if you don't want to (although I'm not sure where you'll find modules without any dialogue). The game is practically limitless. Also, it's not really locked into 3E rules. A conversion to 2E is certainly possible, and I guarantee somebody will do it. All you need to do is a little scripting and some editing with wordpad (all of the rules files are viewable/editable in wordpad)
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
Oh and by the way Mr. Know-It-All, it's 30000 gold, not 10000.
And any additional content built by non bioware people will essentially 'replace' anything bioware made. So by changing the content of the game, you will most likely break other peoples' modules, as well as the single player game. Which is why hak packs are completely unsupported.
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According to Alain, in that game they limited to 10,000 gold of equpipment.
Quote:
We had Level 10 restrictions (only level 10 characters) with a 10,000 gold limit. If you were over 10th level, or your equipment was worth over 10,000 gold, you could not join.
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See?
Oh yeah. Adding stuff without overwriting isn't hard. Not as easy as overwriting, but really not that hard. We're a remarkably resourceful bunch. There is ALWAYS a way.
Posted by: Xtren
Blizzard has had a bad record of hacking and cheating in their games (or in other words their support). If Bioware should be stronger in any way than Blizzard, than as Althaz mentionned before, it will be support-wise.
Posted by: Null Actor
Oh, so when I was playing it earlier, the limit *wasn't* 30000. So, I must be mistaken, even though I'm currently playing the game... Right. Gotcha.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Also, my (admittedly somewhat limited) understanding of a hakpak is...
A hakpak contains all of the custom content that you would put into your override folder (2das [unsupported but useful], creature models etc). Kinda like a zip file.
A module can nominate a hakpak that it uses custom content from. This content is ONLY loaded when that module is played.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
Oh, so when I was playing it earlier, the limit *wasn't* 30000. So, I must be mistaken, even though I'm currently playing the game... Right. Gotcha.
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You COMPLETELY misunderstand. I'm not saying the limit for level 10 characters is 10,000 or whatever. I'm saying that the limit ON THAT PARTICULAR GAME was 10,000 per character.
So yeah. You ARE wrong. But only because you are talking about the wrong thing
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Hey, I made regular member. Despite this being my first (albeit interrupted by a short nap) visit!
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Hmm, I wonder if I can find one of Bob's stories, they'll be sure to convince you guys that NWN is superior...
Posted by: Kdr Kane
Cool. You made twenty posts in a day or so.
Enjoy your longevity while it lasts.
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
You have 2 people in here who have PLAYED THE GAME. I don't think any story from Bob will convince them otherwise.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
I meant everybody else
And besides, you obviously haven't read Bob's stories.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Now this thread is truly funny.
Posted by: Freak
Let him off the hook guys
Posted by: Canis Lupus
you know, it's easy to get post counts ....
Posted by: Canis Lupus
... if you prefer to create new posts, instead of appending them to the ones you already made .... so please ...
Posted by: Canis Lupus
if your thoughts are within minutes of each other, just edit your posts ....
Posted by: Gunslinger
That wasn't the best way for the administrator to make a point....but it was made.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Althaz-Tempest
Hmm, I wonder if I can find one of Bob's stories, they'll be sure to convince you guys that NWN is superior...
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The only thing that'll convince me if NWN is better is when I play it ... I am sure it's the same for everybody else ... and you're one to talk about hype, lol
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Gunslinger
That wasn't the best way for the administrator to make a point....but it was made.
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That's why I ride in the big car ...
Posted by: Null Actor
Breaking your own rules already laggy... hehe.
Anyway laggy, IMO, NWN isn't as good as BG2. The combat system in NWN is pretty spiffy, but I don't think the single player experience will be anywhere near what BG2 had to offer.
And the multiplayer is a total write off with anyone but friends you trust. Just joining a random game sucks nuts.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
Breaking your own rules already laggy... hehe.
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Sometimes it is necessary to temporarily break the rules in order to enforce them ... besides, you're one to talk about rules, lol j/k
Anyway, I'll definitely try out NWN ... RPGs are still my preferred genre, and I will buy it for the single player experience ... if the single player is even 3/4 as good as BG2, then I'll consider it money well spent. Multiplayer? Maybe, but it ain't my biggest priority, y'see
Besides, I'm also buying War3 for the single player anyway ...
Posted by: Null Actor
Yeah, multiplayer is overrated. I'd much rather have an engaging single player story. Problem is, NWNs story so far is about as far from engaging as it gets :/
However, the combat is fun, and as long as you stick to combat classes, the game is relatively enjoyable, even if the dialog and story is weak.
Posted by: Shalome
Spammers and admins and fanboys, oh my!
(Sorry, I couldn't resist after spending so much time wading through this whole long.. long.. way too long.. thread)
Posted by: Gunslinger
I'm melting! Melllllllting!
Posted by: Xtren
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
Problem is, NWNs story so far is about as far from engaging as it gets :/
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That's pretty disappointing. I'd expect the story to be one of the strong points in the game. There are so many ways that you could be creative when writing this stuff up that it's not funny.
Anyway, I'll surely buy both NwN and Warcraft III. I'll buy NwN because I am dying to try the singleplayer mode, and I also have high expectations for the so called "overrated" multiplayer. RPGs are also my favorite type of game
I'm going to buy War3 mainly for the Singlplayer campaigns. I have the beta test so multiplayer shouldn't be anything new.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
This here theard be a mighty silly one indeed! I'm definatly going to pick up NwN. Not too sure about War3 though. I've never been a big RTS fan (besides SC). Mainly because a blind goat with no legs could beat me at alot of them :P
Posted by: Spider
Having high expectations for a video game that's been in dev for a decade is a good way to set yourself up for disappointment. lol.
Posted by: Chako
Agreed with Spider.
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
Quote:
Originally posted by Spider
Having high expectations for a video game that's been in dev for a decade is a good way to set yourself up for disappointment. lol.
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You mean Duke Nukem Forever will suck!?
Posted by: Spider
Hahaha.
Hell yes it will.
Look at Doom 3, I've been laughing about that everytime someone brought it up. And since E3 this year, my laughing has been justified.
Posted by: Null Actor
DNF is special case.
Posted by: Xtren
Quote:
Originally posted by Spider
Having high expectations for a video game that's been in dev for a decade is a good way to set yourself up for disappointment. lol.
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Does that apply in this case? NwN and War3 are, and were, both expected to be great for quite a long time.
Posted by: Gunslinger
The difference is, War3 hasn't been in dev for nearly 4 years.
Posted by: Xtren
NwN on the other hand though has gone through a lot of issues with their developpers. It has been pretty smooth running meanwhile for Warcraft III.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Which is points for War3.
NWN changed developers midstream....that's not good.
Posted by: Xtren
Yes but it explains the delay. Besides the longer a game was in developpement the longer the developpers had to make it better
Posted by: Gunslinger
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
Besides the longer a game was in developpement the longer the developpers had to make it better
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No.
Posted by: Xtren
Well perhaps they were taking their time to get everything right, it is a possibility you know.
Posted by: redwench
roflmfao
when the hell has that ever happened?
Posted by: Xtren
Ahhh, but that is still to come
Posted by: Spider
...and will be still to come long after Neverwinter is released, lol. Get your ass on Uswest and come play some war3 with Laggy, Gun and I.
Posted by: Xtren
Be there in a sec.
Posted by: Freak
Daikatana
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Which is points for War3.
NWN changed developers midstream....that's not good.
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Changed publishers.
The developer has always been bioware. Changing publishers has no effect on the game.
Posted by: Kdr Kane
Daikatana has such a bad rap. I saw it in Gamespot the other day for $4.99. I wouldn't even waste my money on it.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
I think it has a bad rap because it's one of the worst games ever to grace this earth. :P
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Well, there are a lotta bad games on earth ... but very very few are the really really bad games with humongous hype and delays *cough*daikatana*cough*! Hehe
Posted by: Gunslinger
That's why I mentioned Daikatana earlier.
It's good to know that it took multiple pages of a thread for that one to catch on.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
hah, you should thank De Freak ... less is more
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Anyway, just got an email from EBGames saying my copy of NWN has been shipped ... should be here tomorrow or Thursday - then we'll find out what all the hype is about
Posted by: Null Actor
There was talk much earlier in this thread about recreating other games using NWN..., well, I was reading the EULA, and found this:
Quote:
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3. End-User Variations. So long as you fully comply, at all times, with this License, Infogrames grants to you a limited, personal, revocable, non-exclusive right to: (i) use the Software's toolset feature to create your own NEVERWINTER NIGHTS modules ("Modules"), and (ii) create your own modifications to work with the Software (e.g., custom data files not created using the toolset) (the "User Conversions", and together with the Modules, the "Variations"). Your rights to create Variations are subject to the following restrictions: (1) your Variations must only work with the full commercial version of the software game NEVERWINTER NIGHTS; (2) your Variations must not contain modifications to any executable file; (3) your Variations must not contain any libelous, defamatory, pornographic, obscene, or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties, or contain any viruses, worms, or other malicious code; and (4) you may not rent, sell, lease, lend, offer on a pay-per-play or timesharing basis or otherwise commercially exploit or commercially distribute your Variations (including, without limitation, hosting pay-per-play servers, hosting pay-per-download web-sites for Variations including sites that charge for bandwidth use, and independently selling Variations online, at retail, mail order, etc.). Without limiting the foregoing, you expressly acknowledge and agree that in no event shall you have the right or license to make any modification (whether using the toolkit or otherwise) to any portion of the Software for the purpose of creating any data file, executable, or other derivative work that is intended to operate in a stand-alone mode, with any pre-release or beta version of NEVERWINTER NIGHTS, or any software program other than NEVERWINTER NIGHTS.
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The relevant portion, which I have highlighted, means that to recreate any other game using neverwinter nights would be in violation of the EULA. Which means they can legally shut down any project attempting to do so.
And yes, this includes baldur's gate, and BG2. Those properties are owned by Interplay.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Word.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
The relevant portion, which I have highlighted, means that to recreate any other game using neverwinter nights would be in violation of the EULA. Which means they can legally shut down any project attempting to do so.
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But technically, the EULA says those restrictions only cover the "variations" not the modules themselves ... are "variations" and modules considered the same thing then? Are "variations" a technical element of the modules or is it vice versa? What exactly constitutes as a "variation"?
Coz depending on how the semantics work on this kind of user agreement, there is a substantial grey area to be tackled here...
:edit: lemme give an example, just in case I get misinterpreted here... I create a map of a region called Athkathla (which was the region BG2 begins). I create a bad guy called Irenicus with a sister called Bodhi. I create a master thief called Aran Linvail, and recreate the guild war between the shadow thieves and the vampires, with you caught in the middle of it. Let's say I want the module to be set in the backdrop of the guild wars of BG2 ... or maybe even further, in the middle of the bhaalspawn war in TOB ... does this mean I cannot release my module since it violates the EULA?
Posted by: Ion Silverbolt
Hell they can't even prevent the game from being distributed on warez sites yet alone policing every module that users make.
I think that part of the EULA is just them covering their own ass. That way if Joe Shmoe decides to make an Ultima 7 module, the maker of Ultima 7 can't hold Infrogrames or Bioware responsible.
I don't think it will end up being an issue. I doubt very few if anyone will finish a respectably sized module for NWN's or DS besides the developers who are getting paid to make them.
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
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3. End-User Variations. So long as you fully comply, at all times, with this License, Infogrames grants to you a limited, personal, revocable, non-exclusive right to: (i) use the Software's toolset feature to create your own NEVERWINTER NIGHTS modules ("Modules"), and (ii) create your own modifications to work with the Software (e.g., custom data files not created using the toolset) (the "User Conversions", and together with the Modules, the "Variations").
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Variations are anything created for neverwinter nights.
So yes laggy, your module would break the EULA, and you are not allowed to distribute it. Of course, it's not like they'll be policing you... but you'd still be breaking the EULA, and thus, if they told you you were not allowed to distribute that, then you'd have to quit.
Anyway, I've attached the full EULA for anyone who wants to browse it.
Posted by: Bosk of PortKar
yeesh what a thread.
my own stirring of the pot:
W3 will outsell NwN intially. They do have 4.5 mill preorders according to blizz. Not sure how many NwN had, but I doubt it was that high. (saw nada about it on their site)
Time will tell. I've played the game now, and I rather like it. I will NOT be getting WC3 so this is a +1 for NwN.
Posted by: Null Actor
One thing you might be interested in bosk: Despite their promises, neither the linux version, nor the mac version, is included in the box. They are to be made available 'at a later date'.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Just so you all know. AT, well, basically every shop on the planet. NWN sold out. In the first hour or so.
Or so I've been told. Or rather, 5000 people have said "I went to the shop and they said they'd run out of copies of NWN. They said they ran out after an hour!"
Appears to be selling quite well then.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
One thing you might be interested in bosk: Despite their promises, neither the linux version, nor the mac version, is included in the box. They are to be made available 'at a later date'.
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Err, I don't think this should really be an issue (it is, but it shouldn't be).
At least Mac and Linux users will get the game. I assume Mac users will get War3 also? (Starcraft was ported, so why not War3). Will Linux users? Just curious.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
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The difference is, War3 hasn't been in dev for nearly 4 years.
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NWN has been in Dev for five years I think. Although I've no idea why I think that. So I'm probably wrong.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
There was talk much earlier in this thread about recreating other games using NWN..., well, I was reading the EULA, and found this:
The relevant portion, which I have highlighted, means that to recreate any other game using neverwinter nights would be in violation of the EULA. Which means they can legally shut down any project attempting to do so.
And yes, this includes baldur's gate, and BG2. Those properties are owned by Interplay.
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I wonder what would happen if you happened to actually BE the third party in question
btw, that's probably why the guys building BG/BG2/PS:T don't have websites
Posted by: Gunslinger
Quote:
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