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Dungeon Masters
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Posted by: Kdr Kane
Sorry, no time to post this in the news forum. Go ahead if somebody wants to do that.
http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,53352,00.html
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Sadly, I wouldn't call NWN a true "honest-to-goodness" software adaptation of D&D ... there seems to be an inherent difficulty transferring the ruleset of ANY edition onto the virtual world.
While NWN is probably the only computer game that uses AD&D 3rd Edition rules more extensively than any other game (or maybe it's the "only" game that does so), it is not a true D&D environment, due to the addition of some skills like Discipline and Parry, and the splitting of the Diplomacy skill into Taunt and Persuade. This is in addition to other exemptions from the ruleset that had been done to the game in order to make it work with Bioware's Aurora engine technology.
The ability score distribution is also dissimilar to the way it is done in pen-and-paper D&D - it is next to impossible to transfer your stats from your PnP character onto NWN. There isn't even an option to reroll ...
There are other discrepancies with the ruleset in NWN, some made to make it "accessible" to people who have not played PnP D&D before, and some made to make the game "enjoyable" to those who are interested in hack-and-slash instead of pure roleplaying goodness.
For casual gamers, NWN is going to be a decent (if not really enjoyable) game to play. For purists and hardcore AD&D'ers, it's gonna be a little iffy ... NWN is a great game, but it is not the second coming of AD&D (the Baldur's Gate series still has that distinction), nor is it a true adaptation of the PnP we know and love...
Posted by: Null Actor
There won't be a true D&D game until I can play a thief. Properly.
Posted by: Xtren
NwN is much more n00b friendly than BG2, that's why it loses some of its qualities that hardcore D&Ders look for. This makes the game much less complicated than BG2 but for a good reason. This means more people can play the game that are new to D&D. Bioware wanted to make a game that would appeal to more than just hardcore D&Ders but also to the average gamer. I think in the long run though, this will help NwN's sales.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
There won't be a true D&D game until I can play a thief. Properly.
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Amen!
I haven't played BG2 yet as I want to finish BG1 first (which just gave me a weird error and won't let me start the game up) so I don't know how complicated it is. But unfortunatly I don't know enough people with a 400 mile radius to play a good PnP game. Last time I played a real game was years ago. And that was only one short session. So I am left without the knowledge of all the rules of true AD&D. So I for one appriciate NwN's more simplictic take on the rules.
Posted by: Xtren
I am also thanful for the simplicity of NwN because before that game I had never played a D&D style RPG. Torment would be the closest thing too it, and I shouldn't say BG2 counts because I only played for a very short amount of time.
I don't know a lot of the AD&D rules but I seem to be having an easy time of NwN. I hardly ever use feats in the game though on my own. There usually doesn't seem to be a point to use them because some things, like parry mode, don't seem to be very effective.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
You have to add points to them and stuff when you level and slowly they begin to kick arse. Kinda like Magic Missle. Like mages for instance. They can't do jack shit for quite some time, but come level 7+, they'll be able to wipe the floor with most things.
Posted by: Xtren
Since I started playing it's been pretty easy to defeat your enemies without using any of your special abilties. You need some abilities of course, or else it would be impossible to get through the game. However, you really don't seem to need to use a lot of the feats, which is probably why I don't use them a lot.
Posted by: Althaz-Tempest
The official campaign is rather easy. I've maxed out the difficulty, it's more fun that way.
NWN is easily the most complete adaption of D&D to the PC that I've ever played. Easily. But you can't ever have it perfect. That said, NWN is a damn fine game.
Also, BG1 allowed you to play a thief, a bit. NWN does allow you to be a thief, a lot. I'm not playing a thief atm, but I will be undoubtedly. I always do. It's Garret's fault! I'm not sure of the opportunities in the official campaign if you're playing SP though, I reckon you'd need to have some more scripting to be able to propperly play a thief. You're really supposed to be a "hero" in the Official Campaign. I can't wait to play a thief in Toril. Hmm, better brush up on my techniques. I think I'll practice somewhere else first.
Later lads, I'm off to play NWN!
Posted by: Null Actor
Playing a thief is a lot more than just picking the class. Playing a thief properly involves a lot of creative thinking, none of which NWN allows.
Posted by: Xtren
The problem is the game pretty much has a path set out for you, so playing a creative theif, like you said, may indeed be difficult. However, the theif's techniques are still effective, it's just that NwN would need to have a totally different campaign for theives and only theives for you to get to use them creatively like you want to Nova.
Posted by: Null Actor
Games like Deus Ex prove that wrong. You don't need completely different campaigns, you just need a game which is less hardcoded and more reactive.
Of course, that would require people to actually make good games.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Good games?
*gasp*
Posted by: JANNA
u cant be evil in NWN and still play the game. u have to be a "good" thief bleeech. no wall climbing and picking pockets doesnt really mean anything. there is nothing worth stealing in the game and u cant use ur skills to go house robbing since u cant gain XP by stealing or by evading a monster instead of fighting it. the problem with NWN is that the only way u can gain XP is by killing things. when i work on my modules i will take non-linear play more in mind.
Posted by: redwench
one good thing about the bg series. i loved having my thief pick locks and disarm traps because you got exp. leveled the group a couple times that way.
Posted by: Xtren
I'm using a Lawful Good Paladin/Cleric and I rob every house I can. For some reason my status says:
Lawful- 97
Good- 88
Is that really accurate?
Posted by: Null Actor
Yes, because in NWN there is no concept of robbing. You can rob whatever the hell you want, it means nothing.
Posted by: Xtren
Well that's pretty stupid for me. I'm there robbing a huge mansion and guards are trying to stop me,that can't be too lawful. Anyway, even if Bioware did overlook some concepts of the game, they still did a great job in numerous areas......
.... Does anyone have any info on what NwN's sales are? I have no clue where that info can be found....
Posted by: Null Actor
They can't unless you pay someone a lot of money.
I know they had half million preorders though.
Posted by: Xtren
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nova Z
[B]They can't unless you pay someone a lot of money.QUOTE]
I thought the sales would be announced on the official site sometime. All you guys seem to know how many copies other games like D2 and SC sold. Well at least a few people do.
Posted by: Asmodai
Publishers like to say stuff like "we've sold over 400,000 copies" or whatever, but they'll never come out and say exact numbers because there's a whole market for that sort of thing that big publisher's pay to get information on. It's kind of a screwy system, but it's interesting to look at. I saw the numbers for Daikatana and that made me laugh my ass off.
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
I thought the sales would be announced on the official site sometime. All you guys seem to know how many copies other games like D2 and SC sold. Well at least a few people do.
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Yes, if the company is willing to pay for the sales numbers. Bioware never has in the past, and I doubt they'll start now.
Posted by: Xtren
Well that sucks, it would be really interesting to compare the sales numbers of Warcraft III and NwN, that's something I've been dying to do for quite a while now. We had such a big debate about which game would sell more and now we might not even find out 
Posted by: Chako
What would be the point..they are two very different games to begin with.
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
Well that sucks, it would be really interesting to compare the sales numbers of Warcraft III and NwN, that's something I've been dying to do for quite a while now. We had such a big debate about which game would sell more and now we might not even find out
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If you want to compare numbers, consider that NWN had 450000 preorders, and WC3 had 4500000 preorders.
That'll translate in to sales over the first week or two. And the trend will most likely continue for some time.
Posted by: Xtren
Well that's better than nothing, at least I've got an idea of what the sales will look like. That's pretty sad though really, guess you guys were all right when you said Warcraft III would blow NwN away.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
Quote:
Originally posted by redwench
one good thing about the bg series. i loved having my thief pick locks and disarm traps because you got exp. leveled the group a couple times that way.
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You sure theif abilities got you exp? Maybe it's just BG2, cause i'm just about done with BG1 and I sure as hell didn't get exp for picking locks.
Posted by: redwench
im sure in bg2. both amoen (the silly chick) and yoshi earned exp disarming traps and picking locks. dont remember bg1.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
Yeah definatly not in bg1 (which i beat 5 minutes ago! woop!) Isn't that thief girl in bg1 named amoen?
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Yeah, the thief girl in BG1 was Imoen, and she reprises her role in BG2 (which you should be playing immediately, like right now!  ) ... also, everyone's favorite ranger, Minsc, and his space hamster from hell, Boo, will also be back ...
I don't remember gaining any XP in BG1 for picking locks, stealing or disarming traps ... but in BG2 you get hella XP for those 
Posted by: Null Actor
Heya! It's me Imoen!
Heya! It's me Imoen!
Heya! It's Me Imoen!
Posted by: Canis Lupus
*Casts Bigby's Infernal Bitchslap at Nova*
Arrrrgghhh ... make it sssshhtttuuuuuuhhhpphhh!! ... !! ... !
Posted by: Xtren
Do you gain exp in NwN for picking locks? I've tried picking them with my character a few times and it doesn't seem to give him any exp, but maybe it's just me that didn't notice....
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
Do you gain exp in NwN for picking locks?
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nope ... that's why playing a thief in NWN is lame ...
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
Quote:
Originally posted by Canis Lupus
Yeah, the thief girl in BG1 was Imoen, and she reprises her role in BG2 (which you should be playing immediately, like right now! ) ... also, everyone's favorite ranger, Minsc, and his space hamster from hell, Boo, will also be back ...
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I'm gettin there, it's installing at them moment. 80% done. I didn't use Minsc for very long. I took too long to find the Gnoll Fortress so I had to kill him  Imoen I ditched for Coran. He proved to be much more usefull.
Posted by: Xtren
I wish NwN had party members rather than henchmen, that's another RPGistic quality that the game lacks. It would be great if there were party members. The game is already awesome but that would deffinitely be more fun. I dislike how the henchmen level up when you gain a level. You don't know what exactly it is that they are gaining by gaining a level. They don't learn any new skills or anything, so the point of having them is just to make the game easier, but it doesn't add to the amusment side of things.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
NWN's party system is mainly geared at multiplayer ... so the only "party" it will have in single player is more akin to Diablo 2 than anything else ...
Which is why BG2 is still vastly superior in terms of gameplay... in single player, anyway...
Posted by: Xtren
I actually haven't played NwN multiplayer yet. I'm on 56K so i don't want to even bother. However I find the gameplay in singleplayer is great, sure it may lack the party, but the fights and everything are really great. I love the swordfights and everything, they are really well correographed.....
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Yeah, they all "look" great but that's it... you shouldn't mistake "gameplay" with "eyecandy"
Posted by: JANNA
i thought BG2 was extremely lacking in too many areas. the only drawback of NWN is i cant control a party of adventurers and for some reason goblins are stronger and more powerful than bugbears heh.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
Speaking of NwN multiplayer, is anyone playing it yet?
Posted by: Xtren
I'll be playing multi when I get home, because I'll have a faster connection. I get back home Wednesday of this week 
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by JANNA
the only drawback of NWN is i cant control a party of adventurers and for some reason goblins are stronger and more powerful than bugbears heh.
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you're way too generous, JANNA ... I found a lot more drawbacks than those
Posted by: Xtren
To tell you the truth I didn't find many drawbacks. I even thought the storyline is pretty good, and a lot of other people, if not all the other people, didn't. There are loads of cool quests in the game, it just never gets boring. It's a fairly challenging game too. Aside from no party members, like JANNA, I haven't found any other drawbacks.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
haha, whatever ... I just didn't find it as engrossing or enjoyable to play as the Baldur's Gate series ... there were a lot of quests ... but cool quests? Well, if you consider "fetch this" and "fetch that" as cool, then you're right, there are a LOT of cool quests ... altho only the ghost town quest was really memorable to me ... the rest was ho-hum...
Fairly challenging, haha ... only if you're a thief, coz they SUCK in this game...
The henchmen didn't have rich backstories ... I mean, all their dialogue almost always have to do with something they want you to fetch (yeah, that word again) for them, so they can get you a trinket as a reward ... their backstories do not interact with the gaming environment - they are self-contained, and the world around you treats them as though they did not exist, except as someone to fight with ...
I mean, everyone's piping about how this game is the second coming of RPG and a faithful translation of PnP ... I liked the game, granted ... I enjoyed playing it ... I didn't regret buying it ... but it's not really what it's hyped up to be - it has a lot of flaws and I will only go back to playing it if someone finishes a REALLY good multiplayer module for it ...
But for me to play it again and again like I did with the BG series? I'm sorry, it ain't that good...
Posted by: Asmodai
Quote:
Originally posted by Canis Lupus
haha, whatever ... I just didn't find it as engrossing or enjoyable to play as the Baldur's Gate series ... there were a lot of quests ... but cool quests? Well, if you consider "fetch this" and "fetch that" as cool, then you're right, there are a LOT of cool quests ... altho only the ghost town quest was really memorable to me ... the rest was ho-hum...
Fairly challenging, haha ... only if you're a thief, coz they SUCK in this game...
The henchmen didn't have rich backstories ... I mean, all their dialogue almost always have to do with something they want you to fetch (yeah, that word again) for them, so they can get you a trinket as a reward ... their backstories do not interact with the gaming environment - they are self-contained, and the world around you treats them as though they did not exist, except as someone to fight with ...
I mean, everyone's piping about how this game is the second coming of RPG and a faithful translation of PnP ... I liked the game, granted ... I enjoyed playing it ... I didn't regret buying it ... but it's not really what it's hyped up to be - it has a lot of flaws and I will only go back to playing it if someone finishes a REALLY good multiplayer module for it ...
But for me to play it again and again like I did with the BG series? I'm sorry, it ain't that good...
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Amen.
Posted by: Xtren
I haven't played the BG series long enough to get into it so I can't compare the two. Out of all the other RPGs I've played NwN is the most engrossing.
You mentioned how the games quests are fetch this, fetch that, well there really isn't too much that you can change in that area. What else can you do in a quest? I don't see too many things you can come up with that don't include fetching a missing item, or killing a certain person/people, or rescueing a certain person/people. NwN's quests mainly make you do those things, but then again what quests don't?
Right now I'm not very far into the game mind you, I play on and off, been playing a lot of War3 lately. However, I think the towns and buildings and all the NPCs are anything but lame. There are a few that just don't say anything, but that's obviously normal. Now I do admit that the henchmen do not seem to have their own character, they're more like an item in a store with no vending clerk. I don't like how all the henchmen are found in one place either. They do all say the same thing... and you don't exactly have to pursuade them to come along and help you... so you are deffintitely right there.
NwN is obviously the most revolutionized RPG, because of the technology of oday, which make the graphics in the game so fantastic. NwN is also much improved in some aspects that previous RPGs, like BG and BG2 lacked. Maybe the people at ioware just lacked a little creativity when they made NwN, nevertheless, multiplayer seems to look good in the future. Once someone that has that creativity decides to create his own module things will certainly change for you people that think NwN has "fetch this" quests and crummy henchmen with similar personallities.
All would be great if not for Gamespy....
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
I haven't played the BG series long enough to get into it so I can't compare the two.
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Exactly, which is why you can't make the statement below with any accurate assumption:
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
NwN is also much improved in some aspects that previous RPGs, like BG and BG2 lacked.
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As I have mentioned, NWN may LOOK great (no doubt about that). It is technically more superior. but you have to know better than to treat an improvement in technology as an improvement in gameplay - which is sadly not as diverse as the BG series ... and story is very important in an RPG, and sadly NWN is lacking - it doesn't have depth, it doesn't have the multi-pronged conflicts, it doesn't make you care about the world you are in... I mean, what's your motivation in saving Neverwinter? aside from the NPCs telling you that you HAVE to help them, because ... well ... you just have to.
As for quests, if you believe all quests are about fetch this and fetch that, then you obviously haven't played much RPGs ... the ghost town quest I really liked in NWN didn't involve a "fetch" quest, but rather involved a quest for information, which in turn opens up a new set of events, which lead to the salvation (or damnation) of a doomed town. And yeah, that was just a side-quest, too ... Now that's depth ... it's a far cry from, say, fetching this item for someone so you can get a reward. Yeah right, that's what quests are all about, huh? How one-dimensional of you.
What you consider as "normal" isn't ... just coz your favorite game has them doesn't mean they are the standard. You are supposed to interact with your environment, and they should react to you. Guess what, NWN is sorely lacking in that area ... it's like everyone is standing around waiting for you to do something to them, or tell them something. Mere set pieces, which make for a dull RPG world where all the attention seems to be on you.
NWN is only the most revolutionized RPG because of the pretty graphics and combat AI ... other than that, there is nothing else that sets it apart. Of course, I haven't tried the toolset yet, but neither have you, so you can't really say it's the most revolutionary RPG, especially when you admitted you haven't even played the BG series that much. So you have nothing to compare it with.
So as I said, the game right now is not THAT good ... the only thing that will make it good are the modules created by other people ... and I haven't seen much of those around yet. The modules may rock, but the game is not as awe-inspiring as your friends would like you to think...
Here's a tip - finish the game first, then see if you thoroughly enjoyed it enough to want to play it again using a different character...
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
Out of all the other RPGs I've played NwN is the most engrossing.
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Dude, if you think that, then you've seriously missed out. IMO, it's a rare CRPG that is worse than NWN.
I can think of games more than 10 years old that are significantly more fun to play than NWN.
But, I'm betting you are probably relatively young, and you've probably never played an RPG before before BG1. Sadly, far too many people seem to think BG1 is the oldest computer RPG that exists.
NWN revolutionary? Hardly. When it comes to entertainment, NWN is a step back. Easily. In terms of RPGness, even Diablo was superior to NWN. At least I felt something for the characters (Even if it was only hating wirt, that's more attachment than anything NWN has to offer).
I still don't believe any RPG has matched the greatness of Ultima 7. That game was a masterpiece. You should give it a try sometime, though I doubt you will. You'll condemn it for its 2d graphics and midi sound. You'll condemn it for its lack of voice acting. You'll condemn it because it's not straightforward and obvious.
You'll condemn it for no good reason.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
Now, I haven't played very much of NwN yet (I'm waiting till I upgrade my PC...which will happen fairly soon hopefrully) but from what I've played it can't even compare to BG1, or even the 20 minutes I've played of BG2! My main complaints are the fact that at the very begining of the game, you're told by some crazy paladin chic to go capture some monsters, one of which happens to be an intellect devourer now from what I remember fromAD&D, intellect devourers are not something you'd like to confront at level 3. So immediatly the majority of the game seems to be a chance to level up before you have to capture all sorts of crazy high level mosters and confront the evil mage of death. Pretty lame if you ask me.
Now in Fallout 2, for example, you start out be going "Hmm, my village looks like Rwanda having a bad day, I best be finding this GECK thing." So you go out and look for it and happen to level up and get all sorts of crazy guns along the way because it takes a good while to find it. Then you bring it back and go "Oh jeez, my family and friends have been taking by a large dragon fly and went towards a military complex and the only survivor is a coked out shaman that mistakes large transport helicopters for insects. I better go find them before the get killed." So you start on another search for info, and a way to get to an island that you don't realize exsists yet. And on the way you happen to pick up some superduper ass kickin armour and a gun that could dwarf a brahmin in size. Now that's a good reason to do something and a good story for that matter.
Now back to NwN, the Henchmen are just plain stupid. I was just using that halfling thief guy, and it was already annoying. It says he doesn't like going toe to toe with the enemy, yet he sprints up to them before they're even within my sight range! What the flying poop is that!
Atleast in Fallout 2 they run up to the enemy because they have extreamly big muscles, a really big sledghammer, a large bone up their nose (which would piss me off enough to have a battle rage as well) and just plain enjoy it!
Nova is right, I haven't played anything earlier than BG1 on the computer (I have on console though) but I don't need to. NwN isn't revolutionary to the modern RPGs either!
Posted by: JANNA
i like NWN a lot more than BG. i really detested the way that game handled characters and the forced to be a godling thing was really lame. but NWN standard campaign has exactly the same problems with their official singleplay story as BG series does. in that its all step-n-fetchit quests. a good RPG has only ONE quest in which u spend the entire game trying to solve. the ultima series had it right and it hasnt been done right since then. the major strong point i see with NWN is the editor and the DM client allowing the DM to keep control over what is happening in the module. for instance in NwN u cant go back to act1 when u get to act2 etc. that is a HUGE problem. a proper rendition of an RPG will allow the player to go into any area regardless of skill level or story advancement. the problem that bioware has with module making is they throw in side quests that have NOTHING to do with the point of the game. take ultima3 for example u start the game and all u know is ur in a strange land and u have to adventure to figure out what is going on and what u are meant to do. in bioware games u are lead step by step and everything is designed to spoon feed the player the quests. im going thru the single play of NWN and taking notes on what to correct and what to not do when i make modules for it. one thing i dont like is the super powered characters. the only one that isnt all powerful is the thief class and only then if u arent using traps. i think the main reason i like NWN is that it is easy to play and the potential of the editor is very good.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
NwN is giving me a very bad feeling about the 3rd edition rules for AD&D. I"m reading through the Players Handbook and so far it's not too bad bad NwN is definatly giving me a sinking feeling about it.
Posted by: Null Actor
Ultima 7 was awesome. Just the beginning of the game alone.
Poof, you go through a portal back to britannia... and are immediately confronted with the murder of a man who's been hacked limb from limb, and his gargoyle helper who has been nailed to the wall with a pitch fork.
To object of the game? Find the murderer/s.
Of course, the story branches out from there, becoming something amazingly huge and complex... I love that game.
Posted by: Xtren
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
Easily. In terms of RPGness, even Diablo was superior to NWN. At least I felt something for the characters (Even if it was only hating wirt, that's more attachment than anything NWN has to offer).
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You are kidding right? I don't even consider Diablo and D2 to be RPGs, they are hack&slash games, and I never even knew they had a storyline when I played. You go to a dungeon, beat it, move on to the next. What is in each dungeon? Simple enemies, that grow slightly more powerful and greater in size as you progress throughout the game. The highlights of Diablo were fighting end bosses, and how many were there? Three? DS was much better than D2, which was much better than Diablo, and NwN is much better than DS. Your taste seems to take very peculiar turns sometimes...
Posted by: Gunslinger
His taste isn't that peculiar.
I somewhat agree with him. Diablo 2 is far superior to Dungeon Siege in both gameplay and story.
Easily.
NWN is Diablo 2 with more NPCs.
Posted by: Asmodai
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
You are kidding right? I don't even consider Diablo and D2 to be RPGs, they are hack&slash games, and I never even knew they had a storyline when I played. You go to a dungeon, beat it, move on to the next. What is in each dungeon? Simple enemies, that grow slightly more powerful and greater in size as you progress throughout the game. The highlights of Diablo were fighting end bosses, and how many were there? Three? DS was much better than D2, which was much better than Diablo, and NwN is much better than DS. Your taste seems to take very peculiar turns sometimes...
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I think this is where our fundamental differences lie. NWN, Dungeon Siege, Diablo and Diablo 2 are all classified as hack & slash games by me. Some people call them role playing games, I don't. A role playing game to me is Morrowind, Planescape: Torment or the Ultima Series or the Baldur's Gate series.
Diablo 2, Diablo do it better than NWN because they limit themselves to making you spend so much time in dialog trees and reading boring, pointless crap just to get the 'fetch item' quest. Why not just let me read some exposition and let me run on my way? NWN can't figure out what it wants to be. It takes the dialog tree from role playing games and tries to incorporate it into a hack & slash game, which to me makes the game more boring and annoying. I have to click through a bunch of dialog that really doesn't matter just to get my quest reward or in the case of the paladin chick, just to get fricken healed. "No, I don't want to chat, I just want you to heal me!"
NWN failed to pull me in. The story was contrived and frivolous. It made no sense to me (as Blasta said, they make you find and fight an Intellect Devourer) which is something only 9th and 10th level characters fight in PnP D&D because the thing is normally frickin' nasty! They trivialized it so that it could fit in their hodge-podge storyline and that's what bothers me most.
From everything I've read here, you and others that love NWN have no problem with many things I said above and that's why we are so different from one another. You like RPG-Lite, while others like myself, Canis and Nova Z are hardcore RPGers. Not a slight to you in no way, so don't take offense, but it's just the fundamental difference between you and me and our gaming mindset.
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
You are kidding right? I don't even consider Diablo and D2 to be RPGs, they are hack&slash games, and I never even knew they had a storyline when I played.
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I'm not kidding.
NWN makes a better hack and slash game than an RPG, so the comparison is valid. The dialog and story are downright boring, I wish I'd have been able to play NWN and totally ignore the story. It would have been more fun.
Quote:
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. You go to a dungeon, beat it, move on to the next. What is in each dungeon? Simple enemies, that grow slightly more powerful and greater in size as you progress throughout the game. The highlights of Diablo were fighting end bosses,
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And this is different from NWN exactly how?
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
It saddens me to think that you're right, but unfortunatly you are. I remeber a time when games get better as time went along. Mario 3 was better than the original and Super Mario World was better the Mario 3. BG2 is better than BG1, Diablo 2 is better than Diablo 1, and San Fransisco Rush was a shit load better than the Cruisin' USA series.
But now as games come out they get worse (for the most part atleast) BG2 is better than NwN, Dark Reign is a poop load better than Dark Reign 2, and CS is now the equivalent of a pile of wood chips.
Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean these games weren't fun, they just had big shoes to fill, and I don't think they lived up to it at all.
Posted by: Xtren
NwN may seem like a hack&slash becaus it is very n00b friendly, which means you don't have to use feats and spells to get through the game, plus you don't have party members. However NwN is deffinitely not a hack&slash. Some sort of fighting in the game is obviously needed. If you want to use your feats and spells you can, but you don't have to. As far as I'm concerned NwN is no more a hack&slash than Torment, which I have played.
Posted by: Null Actor
hahahahah... torment is no where near hack and slash... torment has an awesome story, and you can play the game with very little fighting at all. In NWN, the game ALWAYS comes down to fighting. ALWAYS.
Posted by: Xtren
I didn't say torment was hack&slash, I said NwN wasn't. Not everything as you said, in NwN comes down to fighting, sure there are dungeons, but there are in all other RPGs as well. Are there enemies everywhere in NwN? No, and that's one of the characterisics of a hack&slash. NwN only has eemies to fight in certain areas, which of course is normal. The enemies in the game don't some in endless floods either, and most of them have a deliberate reason to fight you.
Posted by: Null Actor
If NWN wasn't hack and slash, you'd be able to get experience for things other than fighting. As it is, the only experience you get for not fighting is when you do a fetch quest... which requires a lot of fighting.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Yeah, you can only gain XPs in NWN by fighting, or by finishing a quest (which you have to fight in order to finish) ... Which is braindead, because the non-fighter classes have a harder time getting their levels, and they couldn't get it by doing what they are supposed to do, which is not to fight or kill creatures...
Yeah, this is kinda hack-and-slash like Dungeon Siege and D2 - the only difference being that D2 and DS all had fighter classes, so it wasn't much of a problem ... now take for example Baldur's Gate II, wherein you gain XP for lockpicking, disarming traps, pickpocketing, healing, even just reading spell scrolls!
So to say that NWN revolutionized RPG is blasphemy - they took RPG a step backwards and dumbed it down to be accessible to those who easily get bored with REAL RPGs and prefer hack-and-slash games like D2.
Someone said you don't need feats or other skills to finish this game ... herein lies the braindead design, when things in the game are deemed "useless" because a player does not necessarily need them. So why put them in the first place? Just so it will adhere to the 3rd edition rules and be called an RPG?
I mean, my god, it's even a wonder anyone can beat a DRAGON singlehandedly in this game (even with a henchman, that's a great feat) ... in PnP, a mid-level party that encounters even one adult green dragon is in for a lot of hurt and casualties ... in NWN, bah, you can beat any of the dragons at level 15, singlehanded if you're a fighter. I was looking forward to the dragons in this game coz I thought it was gonna be hard, me being low level and all ... boy, was I ever wrong. Even the red wyrm that was considered the oldest dragon at the Spine of the World was brought down by a puny level 17. In Baldur's Gate II, I had to reload the game a few times when I fought the red dragon Firkraag coz everyone was getting killed very quickly - and I had a party of six level 30+ people!
This hybrid of a game cannot be considered a true RPG at all ... as I said, there is no depth, no legitimate role-playing (stats-wise or story-wise), and it never engrossed me enough to take an all-nighter just to finish it ...
Yeah, some of the RPG newbies may like the ease of play and accessibility, not to mention the familiarity with power-levelling and dungeon crawling, but this game was pretty disappointing for the amount of hype and promises it made ... I laugh at all the reviews that say NWN is the second coming of RPG ... bah, truckloads of fanboys...
Let's pray they don't introduce a tarrasque in a NWN expansion and then make it so ridiculously easy to beat ... that in itself would be the final insult...
Posted by: Null Actor
I gotta agree. NWN shames pen and paper D&D. It's not a computer implementation at all.
I had a lot of fun playiong pen and paper D&D, but NWN basically laughs at the games I used to play... "Why did you die by a dragon when your DM could have just made the dragon pathetically simple? HAW HAW HAW".
I lost 3 characters to dragons in pen and paper D&D over my years playing. Each time, it felt so heroic, so complete, that I decided to leave my character dead and start a new one.
NWN? It's like they sat down and said "We are going to make everyone who plays this game happy as a pig in shit, cause they can kill anything they want, by themselves, without even using a potion!"
Posted by: Chako
Hmmm...sounds like I am not getting this game.
I used to play pen and paper D&D in the 80s with a very twisted DM. Twisted in that he had a sense of humour about him that leaked into game play. I can remember losing 3 party members to drinking a potion that made them totally drunk...whereby they fell into the out house pit and drowned in crap. Talk about an ignoble ending for some heroes. It pissed off a few of the players also hehe...
Posted by: Xtren
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
NWN? It's like they sat down and said "We are going to make everyone who plays this game happy as a pig in shit, cause they can kill anything they want, by themselves, without even using a potion!"
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I have to use a heck load of potions whenever I come to a huge dungeon. I often have to resolve to the stone of recall as well. The game isn't that easy, and if it is for you, then you are either some sort of a D&D expert, or you need to pump up your difficulty.
Posted by: Null Actor
If you touch the difficulty slider, you make the game something it wasn't intended to be.
Regardless, in the whole scheme of things, the difficulty was a minor issue. I actually didn't mind the level of difficulty, so much as the flippancy to which they approached classic DND monsters.
Setting the difficulty up wouldn't have changed anything, it would have just made everything more difficult. The main issue I have is that killing an Orc King was the same difficulty level as killing dragons. ****ing with the slider wouldn't change that.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
So far the only thing I like about NwN is getting to see all the monsters in 3D. The only one's i've seen so far are the ones in the cages when you start, but I very much liked seeing a doppleganger in 3D, especially after playing BG1....damn dopplegangers.... But if a level 17 fighter can take a frickin dragon I mean, what the ****ing hell is that shit? It doesn't even make sense? Why the flying poo infested dead pigs would ONE guy covered in metal be able to take a 30ft DRAGON with bloody fire coming out of its mouth!? Maybe one guy in a goddamn steal bomber, or maybe a tank or two, but a dude covered in metal with a pointy piece of iron?! He doesn't even have any crazy spells!
Posted by: Xtren
The game can't be that incredibly realistic. It would take a hell of a long time to get to level 17.....
If you are saying that a man in armor with a long sword shouldn't be able to take on a dragon then why are you ok with the fact that he can take on a whole dungeon of chaotic escaped prisoners. You'd figure one of them would leave a stab wound.
If the game was meant to be realistic there would be one-hit kills like in the video clip at the start.
Posted by: Gunslinger
Who said anything about realism?
Only you.
In an RPG, the concept is laughable at best. His issue with the level 17 fighter killing a dragon has nothing to do with realism.
Posted by: Canis Lupus
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
If you are saying that a man in armor with a long sword shouldn't be able to take on a dragon then why are you ok with the fact that he can take on a whole dungeon of chaotic escaped prisoners. You'd figure one of them would leave a stab wound.
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Why don't you think for one quick second here ... a whole dungeon of chaotic prisoners will NOT hold a candle with a centuries old red dragon ... he'll roast them all in just a few minutes ...
I mean, really, it's not a matter of whether it's realistic or not ... it's a matter of following the AD&D rules and complying with the stats on hit dice, AC, etc. If NWN strived for realistic combat first and foremost, then they should have ditched their compliance with 3rd edition rules and just packaged their game as a full-fledged hack-and-slash affair like DS with RPG elements ... instead of doing an absurd amount of modifications to the core rules and making it fit their game engine. After playing NWN, fighting dragons in AD&D would now be taken for granted, coz they made it so accessible to the RPG newbie that legendary enemies in AD&D have now become whipping boys...
Realistic? Geeez, that's a silly term in a fantasy game...
And Xtren, if you're gonna defend NWN, please don't grasp at straws ... present something that has merit...
Posted by: Null Actor
Quote:
Originally posted by Xtren
The game can't be that incredibly realistic. It would take a hell of a long time to get to level 17.....
If you are saying that a man in armor with a long sword shouldn't be able to take on a dragon then why are you ok with the fact that he can take on a whole dungeon of chaotic escaped prisoners. You'd figure one of them would leave a stab wound.
If the game was meant to be realistic there would be one-hit kills like in the video clip at the start.
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If you had any concept about D&D rules, you'd know how it's possible for a lone fighter to take out a large group of prisoners on his own, yet not be able to kill a dragon with the same ease.
Of course, it didn't help that for the first week I played, the game was so ****ing buggy, that none of the monsters used spells or spell-like abilities. How's that for quality? The first dragon I encountered, pre-patch, didn't even use his breath weapon. Of course, even after it was fixed, they still could barely hurt me... mostly because of the god-awful monty haul they turned D&D in to. Which, of course, keeps the noobs happy, but trivializes the game for any kind of person who's played any real D&D before.
Oh, and hate to break it to you, but most of my kills in the game WERE one hit kills.
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
Quote:
Originally posted by Nova Z
If you had any concept about D&D rules, you'd know how it's possible for a lone fighter to take out a large group of prisoners on his own, yet not be able to kill a dragon with the same ease.
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thanks Nova, that's exactly what I'm trying to say! The whole game, or genre even, makes sense in terms of the real world. But who said anything about the real world? This is a fantasy world. A lone fighter taking on some escaped prisoners is perfectly reasonable in fantasy game terms, but one fighter against a dragon? I don't think so. Maybe a very high level wizard would have a chance, but a fighter with no potions? pffffffft.
Posted by: JANNA
bioware has really bad monty haul syndrome and its evidently carried over from BG and BG2. right now my thief is walking around with like 40 potions of various heal abilities none of which were bought. heal potions are supposed to be rare and valuable items for use after fights not as they have become ala diablo/diablo2. potions are just one small example of whats wrong with the D&D universe being created by bioware and wizards of the coast. the fact that they so easily translated D2 into AD&D ruleset should tell ya something...
Posted by: Ghetto Blasta
Yeah it always seemed kinda hookey that you could just go to the local smithy and pick up a quiver full of Arrows of Ice, or some bolts +2. It's pretty cheap too. 900 gold will get you 20 of those MAGICAL arrows. Or maybe you'd like a scroll of magic protection? I thought you had to kill some scary many armed/legged/eyed monster to get stuff like that!
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